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Country Discussion Topics
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Two more soldiers killed
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steve19438    Posted 02-19-2004 at 06:12:37       [Reply]  [Send Email]
by a bomb blast in iraq. will it never end???


Red Tail    Posted 02-19-2004 at 12:46:58       [Reply]  [No Email]
It would be one thing if they died for a just cause, like in WWII. But this whole war was based on lies(Iraq has WMD) and mis-truths ( Iraq is responsible for 9/11). I love it when the right starts blaming the "liberal media". Its the usual scapegoat when they have no stonger arguement. And the media have been nothing but cheer leaders for Bush in this whole effort. Iraq is such a complex mixture of ethinicities and cultures with sordid histories that thinking we could evict Sadam and espablish democracy was foolhardy and, as we are seeing a waste of human life.


It's amazing    Posted 02-19-2004 at 14:32:59       [Reply]  [No Email]
how so many forget about all the claims from the previous president. The entire administration thought the same thing about WMD. Did you complain when the missles were sent over by Clinton? I did not think so. I don't know what media you watch but nobody is giving Bush a free ride. I think some people are upset that we have a President who takes action, not just talks about it. Have you also forgotten ALL the reasons we went to Iraq, or are you just picking the WMD because that is all you have? Do you care about hundreds of thousands humans being executed by Sadam? Do you listen to any of our troops when interviewed? They believe in what they are doing. I don't let my political party decide what I think, I look at all the facts, at history and make my own judgements. I wish we all could do that.


big fred    Posted 02-19-2004 at 14:18:30       [Reply]  [No Email]
I watched the whole chain of events leading to the war in Iraq, and I can truthfully say I never heard the administration offer either of those reasons for it. What I did see, however, is Iraq fire without provocation on U.S. aircraft which were patrolling no-fly zones established by cease-fire agreements. I saw Iraq in violation of conditions of that cease-fire agreement for a period of 12 years, which in itself should have nullified the cease-fire and allowed resumption of military action. Lastly, I saw reports from Amnesty International (hardly a right wing organization) that approximately 5,000 Iraqi civilians were dying every month due to Iraqi government actions. I would think that saving the lives of those Iraqis and the elimination of a growing threat, which was identified by the previous administration, would be more than enough justification.


Burrhead    Posted 02-19-2004 at 15:18:15       [Reply]  [No Email]
Now now fred. You musta did'nt keep up with it that close.


Les    Posted 02-19-2004 at 12:03:50       [Reply]  [No Email]
Steve, how many innocent babies died in the name of "reproductive choice" in this country today? Does that bother you at all?


steve19438    Posted 02-20-2004 at 05:44:21       [Reply]  [Send Email]
what about all the inocent lives killed in car wrecks every year???
i believe it is a woman's choice. i do not think abortion should be allowed after three months of pregnancy.


Red Tail    Posted 02-19-2004 at 12:51:57       [Reply]  [No Email]
What does abortion have to do with the Iraq war?? Another dodge by the right to distract from the immoralality (as the pope said ) of this war?


Les    Posted 02-19-2004 at 15:03:06       [Reply]  [No Email]
I notice that neither you nor Steve bothered to answer either of my questions. You're right, there is a big difference between the Iraq war and abortion. Every single victim of abortion is innocent and there's lots more of them. So why don't you get on your moral high horse about that?


I doubt...    Posted 02-19-2004 at 12:55:05       [Reply]  [No Email]
That the pope used the word 'immoralality'...

Salmoneye


You are correct he said..    Posted 02-19-2004 at 14:01:54       [Reply]  [No Email]
...there is "no legal or moral justification" for the war.

This is what else he has to say on the matter . Seems only the first condition was met.

"The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

- there must be serious prospects of success;

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine."



Uh huh...    Posted 02-19-2004 at 17:43:30       [Reply]  [No Email]
I thank you (whoever you are) for posting so politely...

Now...

Can you see fit to give us a link to the lines you have in quotation marks without us all wading through the whole of The See?...And do you intend to include the lines with the - in front of them and are you atributing them to His Holy Father, or are those just from the 'Catholic Doctrine' page?...

Give Thanks & Praise!

Jah Ras,Tafari!


Red Tail    Posted 02-20-2004 at 09:57:20       [Reply]  [No Email]
Just figured folks would figure it was me.

On the just war:http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm#2309

yes it is doctrine not the direct quote from the man.


the first part was a direct quote as reported by the associated press.
BTW i am not catholic(though i was raised one), not even christian, I just enjoy a good, civil discussion of morality, religion and politics.

I enjoyed looking at the Rasta site. Thanks for that link.


Salmoneye    Posted 02-20-2004 at 11:35:18       [Reply]  [No Email]
I do not profess to be any 'religion'...

I just like theology...

I love The RastaFarians...Some of them are the best (read most devout) 'Christians' I have ever met...One guy from Jamaica comes north every year to pick apples...He must be pushing 60 now...Wears a Tam on his dreadlocks the size of a Peterbilt rim...Smokes ganja all his waking life...Picks apples faster and better than anyone I have ever seen...Also carries and reads his Bible everytime he stops moving...Recites passages to himself as he works...



CAH    Posted 02-19-2004 at 09:44:18       [Reply]  [No Email]
There will always be bomb blasts in the world as long as there are people who would rather back down than fight. The ones who would rather back down are the ones who will help the terrorists the most. If you are one who wants out when the fighting gets tough than you have forgotten what America is based on. Our fighters in the Revolutionary War knew they could not back down when things got tough. We owe them and all of our military so much we can never repay them. Death is terrible regardless of how it comes about. Fighting for freedom, our own or for others should never be effected by terrorists. Any deaths in this fight will never be forgotten but are never in vain.


Salmoneye    Posted 02-19-2004 at 09:15:45       [Reply]  [No Email]
Why aren't you asking the same questions about Bosnia and Kosovo?

Oh yeah...Those are UN 'sanctioned' police actions and were started by a President that you liked...

Never mind...I answered my own question...Duh...


steve19438    Posted 02-19-2004 at 09:48:53       [Reply]  [Send Email]
when is the last time an american soldier was killed or wounded in either of the places you mentioned? putup or shutup!


Once again...    Posted 02-19-2004 at 10:21:49       [Reply]  [No Email]
You are not even worth arguing with as your ignorance shines every time you touch your keyboard...

While the death of anyone while serving this nation is tragic and sad, it is not an uncommon thing the way you seem to think (or the way your media portrays)...

You are a sheep and incapable of thinking for yourself...


steve19438    Posted 02-19-2004 at 10:36:31       [Reply]  [Send Email]
while i appreciate the fact that you actually looked something up what you posted has nuthin to do with the question i asked you. one other thing, why are you not capable of arguing a point without getting personal or hateful with someone? is this your idea of america????? so, one more time, care to answer my question?


Salmoneye    Posted 02-19-2004 at 12:53:41       [Reply]  [No Email]
That would be the pot calling the kettle, eh Stevie?

Remember these neighborly and oh so 'American' responses you made recently?

putup or shutup!

Or how bout this classic:

suit yerself!

Below is linked the entire thread that the second polite post of yours comes from when I asked you to paste something that YOU said we should read...Later in the thread is another post of yours that was so incoherent as to be mystifying still...

Again...My original point of bringing Bosnia and Kosovo into question is that you never seem to care about ALL the other places that our men and women are in harms way...You only mention the ones where they are placed by a President you do not like...

Ask your question in a manner that reflects that you actually 'care' about our people in service 'everywhere' and you might get more sympathetic responses...At least from me...

To me this is obviously why you missed the point of the link to the numbers of people that die in non-combat related circumstances while in service...

I think you in fact do not care unless the deaths advance YOUR agenda of hate towards the President...

If you want facts and numbers from Iraq and Afghanistan, they are on the PDF file below...You'll have to cut and paste it in your browser window...

http://www.dod.mil/news/Feb2004/d20040219cas.pdf

Unfortunately, Bosnia-Kosovo is under the UN umbrella, and that is a site I do not visit, but please feel free if you want to...They have really kool tracking cookies...



steve19438    Posted 02-20-2004 at 05:50:18       [Reply]  [Send Email]
put up or shut up, suit yourself... boy are those personal and hateful responses! a true attack on a person. btw: you still haven't answered my question......


Salmoneye    Posted 02-20-2004 at 07:21:38       [Reply]  [No Email]
I rest my case...



steve19438    Posted 02-20-2004 at 09:31:36       [Reply]  [Send Email]
one last time fishyeye, care to answer my question??


Salmoneye    Posted 02-20-2004 at 13:00:16       [Reply]  [No Email]
Maybe you just don't care to read what I wrote...

Whatever...My points are lost on you...

Bosnia 8 years...

Kosovo 4 years...

Much like you, The 'liberal' Press that touts itself as 'caring', ignores stories that don't put forward your political views...Hence it is next to impossible to find info about any other 'dangerous place' where our troops are...Unless of course it is a 'local interest story', like the one below...

Sad...There are other casualties from various countries in the NATO 'peacekeeping' forces of SFOR and KFOR since, but danged if the press covers them...


LH    Posted 02-19-2004 at 07:55:14       [Reply]  [No Email]
As long as we have soldiers anywhere in this world we are going to continue losing some since there are always some form of insurgents, guerillas, etc willing to attack us


Nothing is easy that is w    Posted 02-19-2004 at 07:40:12       [Reply]  [No Email]
Remember it took seven years to straighten out Germany and Japan after WWII. Dispite the bad news things are vastly improving in Iraq do to our wonderful soldiers. They are winning the battle of the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Lets give them a chance by offering them moral support instead of concentrating on the worst of things. One major fear of our deployed troops is that they will be treated like the veterns from Vietnam, Lets not start letting that happen.
KraigWY


deadcarp    Posted 02-19-2004 at 06:58:05       [Reply]  [No Email]
short answer - no it won't end. i don't know what it is but those people tend to kill each other alot. they're simply so different we might have to understand their ways to live with them. probly some kinda subconscious population control so arabs'll never be numerous enough to rule anything - i dunno. the mideast is warlike, they all wear loyalties like banners, their religions clash and they still treat neighbors like cavemen. they'll still be killing on judgement day. go there, get killed without much recourse. the shah's ring used to guarantee passage thru lebanon. sometimes in a car trunk but we got home.

and if they ever grow up and live peacefully, what do you do with the old stubborn ones? i mean we introduced booze to the indians and got thru a few generations without a war but it made them a nation of drunks. well okay drunks with casinoes. in the mideast i don't know what - no kind of politics or treaties will change this bunch. gonna take more than that. maybe a wall.


Paula    Posted 02-19-2004 at 08:12:57       [Reply]  [Send Email]
I heard a commentator on NPR once who said that the difference between Iraq and Germany is that the post war casualties to hostility in Germany was zero. I forget his reference citation but I'm sure it is something easily checked out.

In addition, I don't think Iraq and Afghanistan are anything like the European theater post WWII.

I think more of Sun Tzu's admonitions against fighting wars on two fronts and getting involved in civil conflicts.

Paula


Paula    Posted 02-19-2004 at 06:52:56       [Reply]  [Send Email]
I see it getting worse, way worse.


~Lenore    Posted 02-19-2004 at 08:14:42       [Reply]  [No Email]
Things "look" worse if you are looking at the reports of the liberal media.
Military combat is not pretty anywhere or any time. We remain a free country because we have a strong military, which by it's very existance keeps our enemies (and we do have enemies) from a continuous Sept. 11 repetition right here on our own land.
The men and women who come home have a much more optimistic outlook than we get in the "news" here. They see the changes and successes they have achieved. Of course, there are casualities, if they were here a number would have been killed in auto accidents. Not every death there is a result of ememy attack, some are accidents just like we have here.
I would prefer there was no need for war but, as a realist, I know man will never achieve peace. I also know a good strong military and a good defense system will help keep our freedom and country safe. Thank God for our military, I pray for them daily.



steve19438    Posted 02-19-2004 at 09:14:02       [Reply]  [Send Email]
"Military combat is not pretty anywhere or any time'. for sure! the thing is these troops are not actively engaged in combat. they are providing sercurity for bldgs., roads, depots, etc. combat is one thing, getting blow away by someone driving next to you or setting off a mine/bomb is something else again.


Paula    Posted 02-19-2004 at 08:25:15       [Reply]  [Send Email]
1. You don't really know where I get my news. Liberal or conservative, news providers have their agendas. The only thing you could do to protect yourself from them is to watch numerous news sources.
2. I think things ARE bad in Iraq and will only get worse because of existing and burdgeoning geopolitical issues in that area.
3. I think war is hideous period. I don't think people displaced or losing family in violence connected to war appreciate the practicallity of war as much as those of us watching it on TV.
4. Let's not even go into what 9/11 has to do with Iraq at all.
5. I respect anyone who would put himself purposely in harms way in the way that soldiers do. I'm glad someone's doing it because I won't do it.

JMO
Paula


T D in Tennessee    Posted 02-19-2004 at 08:29:38       [Reply]  [No Email]
if you are getting info from the media, it is from liberals. Thats all there is in the media. And by the way. If you believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God, you only have to look in the 16th chapter of the first book to understand this situation.


Paula    Posted 02-19-2004 at 08:41:29       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Seeing that I don't believe in the bible then that just leaves the news doesn't it.

Paula


RichZ    Posted 02-19-2004 at 08:24:06       [Reply]  [Send Email]
With all due respect, Lenore, I have to disagree. My stepson is a sargent in the 101 Airborne, and had been in Iraq from the begining of the war. Thankfully, he came home in one piece a few weeks ago. He is very depressed by the whole war. He says it is "senseless" and "insane". He says, the Iraqi people by and large are good people, but there are so many insane terrorists there, that things will never change. For several months, he and his buddies did house to house searches for terrorists in and around Baghdad. He talked to many Iraqi people, who told him that, though they really do appreciate America's efforts, there's no way to get rid of the terrorists, because no one can tell who they really are. They can be anyone's next door neighbor, and the Iraqi people all live in fear of the next terrorist attack.

My stepson feels that the American and allied deaths there were pointless.

I'm not trying to be political, but just presenting a view from an American soldier.


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