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To add your comments to this topic, click on one of the 'Reply' links below.

I am outraged
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Donna    Posted 02-28-2002 at 11:03:26       [Reply]  [No Email]
I am Outraged and I am turning this in, everyone that is ofended by it
do the same, I will not this pass, I am raising the roof,
I am not an animals rights person but this is going way over the line
here with me, I am so Mad in Mo.
Donna
This message came into my email this morning through another group I am
on, and I am passing it on to you, deal with it.I am!

I am looking for 15 to 20 mature Nubian does for a research project,
weights
> 100-150 pounds. This will be an acute (critical) study, Paige,
which
means
> that they will be euthanized at the end of the study. I am not at
liberty
> to reveal details of the study but any surgical procedures will be
performed
> under anesthesia and recoveries will be personally managed by me.
If the
> procedures cause pain it will be controlled by newer drugs which are

much
> more effective than those available even 5 years ago. Euthanasia
will be
> done gently and painlessly.
>
> I found your e-mail on the internet through the Boone Companions web

site.
> Thanks for any assistance you can offer.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Wolff
> --
> William A. Wolff, D.V.M., M.S.
> 4716 Baxter Ct., Columbia, MO 65203
> Tel.573-445-8093, Fax 573-445-8094


mike    Posted 03-03-2002 at 05:10:40       [Reply]  [No Email]
feel free to rant, it falls on my deaf ears


I'mWithYa(Tx)    Posted 03-01-2002 at 23:43:53       [Reply]  [No Email]
Salmoneye
"Exactly...it IS inhumane to experiment on animals. That is because animals are not 'human'. No matter how much you want to believe that they are something more, they are just animals."
I'm glad you have lead a sheltered life or else you would know that there are a lot of animals that are far better than some so-called humans! I guess since you put humans so far above animals that you would gladly take Charlie Manson,Bin Laden or Jeffery Dalmer, etc. into your home. Believe me I rate my dogs as being better than any of these so-called humans. And since you think Humans are so high & mighty and superior to animals, FYI we are not the most intelligent life in the universe. Superiority and being the most dominent does not mean the most intelligent and when those that are superior to us finally do decide to make their presence known to all- if they decide to make lab rats or food out of us we will definately deserve it, though we would not go down without a fight (just like the rest of our relatives-the animals do).
We should not be willing to treat animals any differently than we ourselves would be willing to be treated. Just as you hold their lives as countless and meaningless, some humans view other humans lives the same way because they are well aware of the fact we are all animals on this planet whether it is 2 or 4 legged.
I am not saying animals are better than us, but by the same token we are not better than them. The only difference between us and them is we are able to make better weapons to kill them with, thus just because of this that does not make us superior to them or them any less valuable.

Mark Hendershot
You misunderstood me in being willing to take some miricle drug--if it had been tested on animals I would not be willing to use it in order to save my life. What I meant is I would volunteer to take the place of a lab rat if I was going to die anyway--but now I see there is no sense in trying to survive anyway. Unlike you I am not in good health and am in the highest risk factor for getting colan cancer. There is nothing wrong with raising your own food as long as you humanly kill it and you like the taste of fresh meat (I don't like it, guess I love the taste of red dye #3). Due to a lack of appitite, I rarely eat anything but TV dinners anymore and only 1 meal a day. I do occassionaly like my steak or roast, but have even found it harder to eat after looking in the eyes of cute calves. I don't have the soul to make a meal out of something I raised but I could if I hadn't raised it. Without those (like you) with a stronger soul, I would probably have to be a vegitarian (which I did try at one time but I didn't like enough different veggies that are required in order to survive that way, plus I missed that red dye #3 and chicken fried steak). So I am grateful for people like you and those that work in slaughter houses and meat packing plants that are able to do a job that puts meat on the rest of our tables since we no longer have the option to go out in the wild and kill a bear, buffalo, deer or whatever in order to feed outselves. I have put my life on the line for you and this country by serving in the military, it takes all kinds of us to make this world go round.

brian
Sometimes I don't even eat 1 meal a day, and only on rare occassions do I ever get hungry. You could say I know what its like to be mal-nurished and the really bad headaches that can come from it. I don't know where you shop at, but food prices are already too high though I know you are not the one reaping the most benifits from that price. If you are killing deer and using the meat there is nothing wrong with that unless they get under populated from it, but killing them and letting the meat rot just because they are grazing your crops would be wrong. Just as animals can become overpopulated and stand the risk of starvation, the same thing can happen to mankind (look at China, someday there will be more people than room to grow crops or meat sources). Read Ole Cuss's reply and then you may be able to open your eyes to what these people are up to. If they have to destroy all the animals used at the end of the research there is definately nothing humane being done in the research. If they are inflecting something deadly on a healthy animal and then have to destroy it I have a problem with that. Whatever they are reasearching (if its for the good of mankind or animal kind), then there probably already exists enough animals (2 or 4 legged) with this that they could conduct what they are calling humane research on them. They are going to die anyway so why not do the studys on the ones that are already sick? The cop out that the specimen has to be kept in a lab setting is really stupid and I wonder how many cures that could have worked didn't because it was missing the one main ingredient that aids in anythings recovery--love. Being loved increases the will to live and that coupled with medicine increases the chances of survival. Vise vesa, you may have found a medicine that would work but without the love & will to survive of the patient you would not be able to save them.

I understand and know why you view things differently from me. And most of you seem to make use of what you kill which is good and right. But all life (not only human) is valuable. In my books there is nothing wrong with killing in order to put food on the table or if your life is directly threatened by something, but to purposely inflict harm on something just to reap benifits is wrong. What happened when animal life is too demoralized? The Texas Chainsaw Masaquer (a movie based on a real life event), showed us that when no morals are placed on the taking of animal life, it will spill over to human life. The crime and all the killings that are happening today is because more and more are no longer placing value on human life. Is this a crisis that will only stay in the cities? No, some kid and his friends killed his Aunt & Uncle here not long ago over using a new pick up truck. They way some are talking about animals just being animals, possessions, resourses, etc. is exactly what is spilling over to humans views of other humans. Whos right? We'll find out in the end.


Mark Heiskala    Posted 07-20-2002 at 15:39:03       [Reply]  [Send Email]
I am outraged, that your such a dumbass donna, you think pigs are going to take over or something come on! How stupid are you, sounds like your more like an animal yourself. .When the animals supposedly take over I will take my own life something that no animal can do because they dont understand that no life is better than one filled with torture


Mark Hendershot    Posted 03-02-2002 at 20:34:53       [Reply]  [No Email]
Just to let you know I am also a Vet of Vietnam. Those TV Diners your eating are not good for your health. If you wanted to stay heathy you should eat better. I do not know how old you are but I am fifty and I think I am in good health. I know my daughter of 16 has only had antibiotics once in her life and that was for a cold and she should not have had them. Fisrt of all I do my best to let my body heal itself brfore I see a doctor. Are bodys were made to do that pretty good before all the quacks started pudhing pills for everything. And food produser started using so many chemicals in food to preserve it, color it and modifie it. I have raised allmost all my food for the last 20 years and I know where it comes from and whats in it too. I contribute that to my daughters health. We do not eat junk food, fast food, coke, beer (I do smoke) our meals are made from scratch. If you want good health you have to work for it. Of course some people get dealed a bad deck of cards in life and good food won't change the outlook but bad food will sure shorten it. Processed food is just that processed stuff. We Bake Dog Cookies for a living and we know what goes in dog food so we make that too. Are Dogs are a very important part of our life to us and so are the rest of the animals we raise. People who profet from the mistreatment of animals arn't on my list of good people and I do not agree with it. I don't hunt anymore but I do shoot preditors on my place that try to interrup the flow of things. I am sorry you are in bad health, even tho food does not taste good you should eat anyway if for nothing else your health. If you ate good food you might like it better too. One person or a bunch of people can't change the world so I just make sure what I do is right and hope for the best for the others. Life will allways be bad for some and that will never change. Just make sure what you do is right that's what is important. Mark Hendershot


I'mWithYa(Tx)    Posted 03-03-2002 at 23:11:51       [Reply]  [No Email]
Mark, You are a very kind, caring and good person and I am sure you will truely be Blessed for it. I was always told the best people you could find were country folk, well I guess thats another thing that is just a thing of the past, except for the few left like you.

I am 48. Growing up there were so many parts of the Bible I didn't understand. Why God would wipe out all the people & start all over again, why so many people still did not believe Jesus was the Son of God after seeing & hearing the truth and why when he returns there would be such vengence. Well now I have a better understanding of it all.
The only mystery left is why did God put 2 creatures of every type he made on the Arc, was it because he loved and valued all of his creations?

If people unite they can change the world. An end to slavery, womens rights, and people putting an end to Vietnam shows us that much. All those that went to Vietnam are Heros in my books for answering the call of the Nation. But at last we do finally get tired of fighting all the battles to make this world a better place, and retire to only doing what we hope is right. I just haven't completely made it to that point yet because it makes me feel like I am giving up completely on mankind. From this though I know its time to.

May only the best come your way in life. I won't be back to read anymore from this board, because I don't need my heart hurt anymore than it already has been.

God Bless & Good-bye.



Salmoneye    Posted 03-02-2002 at 01:19:24       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Pretty sure I am not the one that has led a sheltered life here.
If it makes you feel better to attribute human emotions and characteristics to animals, then please feel free.
However, if it is a choice of me running down a dog/deer with my car, or swerving to miss it and possibly injuring myself, my family or hitting another vehicle, I will slam that animal happily.

Same for testing of drugs and medical procedures.
It is very easy to sit back and say that you will not 'personally' benefit from any research done on animals. How altruistic of you. Of course you are discounting the fact that you are already this long lived because of such research. Every vaccine, medicine and procedure you have ever had are all lumped on the back of some lab animal somewhere. I personally can count 5 times in the last 40 years that I should have been dead. 100 years ago I would have never seen 10 years old and that was only the first instance where modern (lab animal tested) medications prolonged my life.
If you have Grandchildren, look into their faces and tell them that they can not have that med that will save them cuz we were cruel to an animal inventing it.

And lastly...Um...not that I disagree that:

'FYI we are not the most intelligent life in the universe',

And this part:

'when those that are superior to us finally do decide to make their presence known to all- if they decide to make lab rats or food out of us we will definately deserve it'

But...can ya tell me when the mothership is going to arrive so I can wear clean underwear that day?


Ole Cuss    Posted 03-01-2002 at 14:00:57       [Reply]  [No Email]
Let me start by saying that I hunt, love meat, raise livestock, and wear leather products. I am not a wuss nora tree hugger. I am also an ardent anti-vivisectionist.
When I first go out of vet school many moons ago, I thought I wanted to specialize in pathology. I was awarded a fellowship to study comparative pathology at an extremely prestigious university and medical school. My time there was spent performing autopsies on the many species of animals which underwent a variety of experiments. My fellowship was supposed to last 3 years and would have led me to a lucrative career as a specialist earning up to $100,000 a year, but I was so horrified by the nature of the experiments and the sheer waste, destruction, and suffering visited upon fellow creatures that I bailed out after a year and went into private practice. The researchers care no more for the animals than they do a test tube; they are just a tool that eats and poops, as far as they are concerned. Most of the experiments are so esoteric and redundant that they exist merely as a means of getting grant money to pay the researchers' salaries and feed their monstrous egos. Unless you have ever spent significant time working behind the scene in these labs, you have NO IDEA of the cruelty perpetrated on animals in the name of "benefits to humans", a phrase easily tossed around as if it excuses everything. I saw things done to animals that were similar to what the Nazis did to humans and for which they drew prison terms after the war. I personally do not feel that any benefit derived from the suffering of these lab animals --dogs, cats, goats, cows, primates, mice, rabbits, rats, etc.-- is worth the price of selling your soul of kindness and checking your morality at the door.


I'mWithYa(Tx)    Posted 03-01-2002 at 23:44:28       [Reply]  [No Email]
Well spoken and I regret that I have never found someone like you. I am sorry you have lived and seen such sites, but standing by morals and doing what is morally right makes you the better person. Some of us don't have to see it first hand or live it in order to smell a rat though. The old saying what you don't know won't hurt you, well Laden proved that one to be wrong. Its only by people who have been willing to open their eyes and see an injustice, that have put a stop to the evil ways of the past like slavery, Hitler, women taking a back seat, etc. Just because it has been the way it has always been, doesn't make it right. I for one do not want to see any animal or humans life being purposely taken in order to extend my own life or care to reap from its benifits. If something is found to work on the ones that are already sick then I would be willing to use it myself.
From what I have heard we took in some of the top doctors that did these experiments for Hitler and knowing how our Govt. has worked in the past, we probably did. I know some today even after it has come to light that we snippered and toppled governments in the past still don't believe we did it. Was it wrong, yes any unfair fight or stabing someone in the back is wrong. Anyone who is not willing to fight face to face on equal grounds and terms is nothing more than a unjustified coward and will reap what they sew.


Ole Cuss    Posted 03-02-2002 at 05:42:56       [Reply]  [No Email]

The public at large can turn a blind eye to the barbarity of animal experimentation because decent, caring folks simply do not have the imagination to conceive of what is being done. It goes way beyond just giving an animal a pill and seeing what happens folks. "Gruesome" is not too strong a word to describe some of the experimental protocols I have witnessed. There are things done that, if done outside a lab environment, would brand the perpetrator a sociopath and have the public screaming for his head; the same thing done under the aegis of a lab wins awards and prestige for those responsible. When Saddam Hussein released nerve gas into villages of ethnic minorities to test it, the world was outraged, but a researcher who does the same thing to dogs and coolly observes and records their wretched and prolonged death spasms wins tenure. At the university where I was on fellowship, I heard a Nobel Prize laureate state with great ignorance that "Animals have such high natural immunity to infection that sterile operating procedures are not necessary." At least that explained why so many of his rabbits ended up on my autopsy table with brain abscesses after his experimental procedures. Often these many unexpected deaths would screw up his experiment, but his attitude was, "Well, they'll just buy me more rabbits and I'll start over." Labs have Animal Care Officers or Committees which are supposed to provide oversight, but they keep their mouths shut because they know researchers like the Nobel Prize doctor, if challenged for shoddy practices, would simply pack up and go to any of a number of other universities which would be happy to let him go about his grisly business without hassling him over his animals' well-being. The most ethical researcher to my knowledge was the famous Pavlov, who dictated that his experimental dogs were to be walked and exercised daily, and he encouraged his staff and family to play with them to give them as normal a life as possible. When the Franco-Prussian war broke out, the ensuing food shortages made it impossible to acquire sufficient food for his dogs, so Pavlov had them put down rather than starve; this broke his heart because he had become so attached to them.


Hogman    Posted 03-02-2002 at 17:38:25       [Reply]  [No Email]
OW that fancy dan critter should have His "manhoods" removed with a very dull,dirty,rusty knife!
I bought proxide by tha case and used disposable scalples to keep My little boar pigs free of infection after castration.


Hogman--SORRY ,MENT OC    Posted 03-02-2002 at 17:42:09       [Reply]  [No Email]
Who says senility ain't available ta all Us youn'uns?


I'mWithYa(Tx)    Posted 03-01-2002 at 02:21:03       [Reply]  [No Email]
I truely believe you will reap what you sew. If its inhumane to experiment on people, then it is inhumane to experiment on animals since that is exactly what we all are. If God wanted us to still live to be 365 years old, then we would be able to. But he saw a need in reducing that life span and trying to extend it is wrong. If I recall right he did not put animals on the planet to be our food source originally (remember only fruit was eaten in the Garden of Eden when other animals were around). What was behind Gods motive can be seen by what is happening in China. Due to overpopulation and limited space for producing food children are killed in order to keep the population down. Without following his plans for our deaths and joining him, the whole earth will be faced with what China is right now and I doubt killing children before or after they are born is what he had in mind.
No one wants to die or lose a loved one, but for the sake of future generations we must do it and thats not at our own time table. If we live beyond our expected times we are using up resources that are meant for future generations.
Self sacrifice, if we expect it of our military, police and fireman why should we not expect it from ourselves?
As for me, if I was going to die anyway I'd rather them experiment on me than on animals. And I would not allow any animals or humans body parts be put into me, though I would accept plastic, mechanical or cloned from my own cells parts at one time in life. Now I just plan to die when my time is up unless some miricle drug experimentation can save my life or hold promise to save others. When my body parts fail I'll accept it and die.
Some day when the earth sees a shortage in food, they will wish they had all those "lab rats" wasted in the past for dinner! After all the animals are wasted away, guess what the next meal plan will consist of--back to square 1 cannibalism. If I recall right the Bible says thats a no-no, but I bet then no one will still want to throw in the towel.


Bob /Ont.    Posted 03-01-2002 at 20:16:11       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Hi TX. Might wanna do a little more research on that China thing.
Bob


Mark Hendershot    Posted 03-01-2002 at 08:47:05       [Reply]  [No Email]
I love animals very much and belive they have a place in this world. They are here to feed us and be our companions too. If the animals in the wild get over populated they will suffer. The food chain takes care of a lot of the problem, more Rabbits = more Coyoties, more Coyoties= less Rabbits it just keeps going up and down. I raise my own Meat and take real good care of them while they grow. There is no reason to be mean to them, when it comes time to have them shot I get some one who is good at it and it is quick. I used to say they die with a smile on there face and a lot better than what happens to them at a slaughter house. Some people go to the store and buy their meat and comdem me for what I do, is the fact that you don't see what happen that it is different? If we left all the cows alive to grow old they would die a horible death like we do, I hope I go just as quick when my time comes!! If a animal being researched on saves lives that is great, it did something better then a dog tied up in a yard not being fed right or being cared for. I do not think they should just repeat tests that have been done before but your mirical drug you were talking about saving your life was probley tested first on a animal. You can still be good to animals and raise them for meat that is all part of the food chain. There are things we need in meat to live just take a close look at the total Vegatarians and you will see. I like a good steak cooked up on a grill and I like seeing our cows out in the pastures enjoying there time growing up. But when it is there time, I do the job and thank them for what they pervided me with! Mark H.


brian    Posted 03-01-2002 at 06:13:29       [Reply]  [No Email]
I guess what your saying is that it is wrong for me to kill deer on my farm when they weren't intended for meat. And you say by killing animals we will cause a shortage in food because we live longer. Well I kill the deer on my farm and put them in my freezer and the freezer of those who are less fortunate. If I don't kill the deer humanily they will eat my crops thus leaving you (the consumer with less food and higher prices). Then when they become overpopulated for the area and are suffering from hunger just like the people I give the meat to, they will die a painful and excrutating death from hunger. Have you ever been hungry? It is an awful filling. As for research, what if he is working on a drug that will help the goats live longer. You said use humans for research on humans, then why not use the goats for research on goats.

brian in ky


Salmoneye    Posted 03-01-2002 at 05:59:16       [Reply]  [Send Email]
"If its inhumane to experiment on people, then it is inhumane to experiment on animals"...

Exactly...it IS inhumane to experiment on animals. That is because animals are not 'human'. No matter how much you want to believe that they are something more, they are just animals.

Posessions, food, a resource.

That is it.


Burrhead    Posted 02-28-2002 at 16:51:47       [Reply]  [No Email]
I keep goats around here too Donna. Goats are handy to keep fence rows clean, and brush out of pastures, but the bucks also make some fine fine bar-b-q.

I have personally seen some of the Texas A&M animal studies and the animal lives a fairly good quality life as long as it goes.

We could go back to the days when Ohio, Texas, and New York hired the lifer convicts for research.

In the 50's and 60's some states cashed in on research money by hiring out the convicts for cancer and medicine to the large medical manufacturers.

To me it is easier to watch a lab rat die than a man to die.


Jim (Mi)    Posted 03-01-2002 at 09:27:33       [Reply]  [Send Email]
I would love to see them go back to testing on lifer inmates. If I was one, would I like it; probably not, but hey, what better way to get human reactions to find a cure. They can start with murders first, and go on down the line.


Burrhead    Posted 03-01-2002 at 11:09:17       [Reply]  [No Email]
Don't misunderstand me on my view. I don't have a problem with the lifers being the test rat.

What I meant is that I would much rather the test animals were used for testing than the patients at a VA hospital or cancer treatment research center.

From what I have observed the patients at a research or teaching hospitial are sometimes the "test rat" patient.


Mudcat49    Posted 02-28-2002 at 15:45:24       [Reply]  [No Email]
Sorry Donna, but you get no sympathy from me.
I am alive today because I have a calf valve in my heart. God put the animals here for our use and that's the way it is! I also love my animals and would NEVER mistreat one, but if it is being done right I have no problem with using them for research.


Donna    Posted 02-28-2002 at 15:32:24       [Reply]  [No Email]
It went all over me like the mad that it was, My nubians are the love of my day, and I chocked reading the message, and it truly did bother
me. I will run the distance if a wrong is done, and sometimes I jump to quickly. It is the suffering of an animal that hurts and tears my heart strings. Don't get me wrong I think what they are doing to the unborn babies for research is worse.
But that is my opinion of which I am entitled



Ludwig    Posted 02-28-2002 at 14:33:58       [Reply]  [No Email]
Hmm, things upfront seem on the up and up.
Remember people eat goats too...
I would check him out just as a matter of
course. A quick call to him to get some
references, then check those, then cross
check, like call his school independantly,
something like that.

Would you rather he was trying to get people
for the study? What if he's researching
something to help goats? Or something that
might save one of your own children
someday?


Dave in Mo    Posted 02-28-2002 at 13:22:31       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Donna, sounds to me like this Doc is from the School of Veterinary at Univ of Mo. They "supposedly" have one of the best in the country, so it sounds legitimate to me.


Salmoneye...um...    Posted 02-28-2002 at 12:22:58       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Guess I do not understand outrage in this instance.
The man is obviously doing some type of research.
Don't think the man could have been more up front with what he plans on doing.
If you do not wish to participate, then by all means don't.

Guess I am still confused here...


SteveD(TX)    Posted 02-28-2002 at 12:21:54       [Reply]  [No Email]
I also do not understand your outrage. Animals have been used for medical research for years, and it appears that he will be humane in their treatment. This type of research usually will ultimately benefit animals and/or humans. Goats and other animals are not human beings, and if scientists find it necessary to use them for their research that have future medical benefits for others, I am absolutely for it. I AM against of their sacrifice for use in cosmetics and similar uses. PS. I am an animal lover.


F14...Why?    Posted 02-28-2002 at 11:49:40       [Reply]  [No Email]
It sounds to me like he's doing things humanely, with anesthesia and pain management. This isn't vivisection.

Under the circumstances, I don't understand your outrage.


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