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Country Discussion Topics
To add your comments to this topic, click on one of the 'Reply' links below.

About not forgetting...
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Cindi    Posted 05-18-2004 at 04:20:49       [Reply]  [No Email]

Back in the sixties, and even up through today, it was and is very common to walk into the house of a black family and see a picture of Martin Luther King on the wall... right next to Jesus. This is a stark reminder of a sad time in America's history.

The early sixties was a turbulent time. The beginning of the twenty-first century is no less turbulent. Our country is no less divided now than it was then. If possible, it's worse. Politics and the media have succeeded in driving a wedge between us and making us forget something that we all swore in September of 2001, that we would never forget.

George W. Bush has taken a lot of heat over his 'with us or against us' policy. Well, I'm sorry, but I grew up in Texas, and maybe that's why that particular part of his speech made perfect sense to me. Basically what that statement means to me, is that we must stick together. At all costs. To me that means, if you don't support your country, then you weaken it. You may have to read between the lines, and you may have to speak 'Texan' to get it, but I got it.

As far as I'm concerned, and despite the fact that many don't agree with this war or why it was started, choosing to pick apart our government and bad mouth our country is no better than terrorism. On our own soil. A betrayal. Dividing and conquering from within. To what end?

Our own demise as a strong, democratic country.

It makes me sick to see this betrayal happen on our air waves, under the right given these 'nay-sayers' by the freedom of speech that men in our history died to put in place. How ironic is that?

Unfortunately, in the world of politics, it is no-holds barred. While many say that George Bush used the war on terrorism as an 'excuse' to invade Iraq, there are just as many out there right now using the Attack on Iraq as an 'excuse' to further their political careers, so in my opinion everything said or done against our current president must be taken with a grain of salt in this election year.

Many people will argue that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with nine one one. That may very well be true. I for one find it difficult to believe that Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, despite their relative dislike of each other, did not have one very strong point in common. The even more powerful hatred of the United States. I will never be convinced that the attack on the World Trade Center, was not only applauded, and encouraged, but most likely supported by Saddam Hussein in some way. I will never be convinced that there are no weapons of mass destruction. There was too much time allowed to cover up and relocate anything incriminating, and the very act of putting our military on Iraqi soil may have diverted plans for further attacks.

Some will say that we struck out blindly. That we hit the first available target out of retribution, that Saddam Hussein was our scapegoat. You know what? I don't care. Why? Because it sends a message across the world that we will not allow these heinous acts to occur on our soil. That there will be repercussions. Osama Bin Laden had to use our resources to perpetrate his attack. An action that some view as brilliant evil. Well, evil minds think alike, and what better time to act than on the heels of such a devastating attack on our country. It is my firm opinion that had the attack on Iraq not occurred, that we all may be singing a very different tune right now.

I move that everyone who has not done so already, go out and purchase a piece of art of some kind. Something that is reminiscent of 9/11 and hang it on the wall, or place it on a table...somewhere so that you may see it everyday as you enter or leave your home.

I'm not talking about a flag, or a statue of a firefighter or policeman covered in ash. No. It needs to be something much more graphic. Perhaps a photo of one of the victims that fell to their deaths from the towers. Arms extended, vainly thinking that they could catch themselves. Someone's loved one, that was simply going about their business on that fateful day and died because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Mothers, fathers, wives, husbands, sons and daughters. Gone forever, due to a fanatical religious element of the world population.

Where goes fanaticism, goes danger. George said it. "If you're not with us, you're against us." He has been condemned for saying that. Well, excuse me, but dying for not believing in a certain religion is simply a less subtle way of making the same point, and frankly, fighting fire with fire is a proven and effective battle technique. We all need to become fanatics in our own right. Fanatically patriotic. Fanatically loyal. Fanatical Americans who stand together, united against terrorism whether it occurs on our land or simply in our world.

I'm not suggesting that a portrait of Geroge Bush should be hung on your wall...right next to Jesus. But regardless of your political stance, one thing will always remain the same. Our country must be united. Our soldiers, despite the ugly face of war, and what may be viewed as atrocities committed by them, must be supported. There are a few bad apples in every cart, that does not mean that the entire load is bad. That's the kind of 'general thinking' that caused the devastation of September eleventh.

No matter how long it takes, no matter how ugly it gets, no matter how much it hurts, we will put a democracy in place in Iraq. We will help these people achieve a better life, a better way of life. Nobody ever said it was going to be pretty, or that it was going to happen fast, or that there wouldn't be set backs. The underlying truth is, the most effective way to cut an enemy off at the knees is to appeal to his army. To offer them a better way, a more peaceful existence. Eventually, this will happen. The people of Iraq will experience freedoms the likes of which they have never dreamed possible. Then and only then will it all have been worth it, because if they're not with us...they're against us.


Red Dave    Posted 05-18-2004 at 08:51:16       [Reply]  [No Email]
A lot of truth in your post Cindi. Many good points to ponder in all the posts so far.

I'd like to thank all the posters for adding your thoughts without name-calling & personal attacks. A civil discussion is refreshing.
Some I agree with, others I do not, but all were sincere and important to consider.

Much to think about.


O.O.A.    Posted 05-18-2004 at 08:28:36       [Reply]  [No Email]
Cindi, I regret you see ," Dividing and conquering from within ". I see a democracy at work. Thank God for our media ,whether its right wing or liberal we have a choice.Like it or not this country is about civil and human rights, and its an on going struggle to maintain them.We are at our best ,when we come together for the greater good of this country.No political group owns the moral high ground ,of what happened on 911 or the war in Iraq. Americans died ,Not just Republican or Democrats,Americans.


Mugway    Posted 05-18-2004 at 06:10:12       [Reply]  [No Email]
Cindi, I was a very big supporter of GW when he decided to go to Iraq,UNTILL he added God in his speaches,that turned it into a Holy War, instead of hunting down the criminals of 9/11.Where is Bin Laden?, I dont care about the people of Iraq,I want justice for the people of 9/11,some one has to pay. It seems with all this going on in Iraq we have forgotten about the justice of 9/11. Going after someone else for the crimes of another is not justice,I want to see Bin Laden hang from a rope untill he quits kicking that is the only thing that will satisfy me,you can totaly disarm the mid east but untill the creep(Osama) is caught I will not be happy.


dale anne    Posted 05-18-2004 at 06:44:47       [Reply]  [No Email]
howdy mugway.....Justice?....dont ya know that when he is caught if ever!..that he will be a prisoner of war...we cant just hang him...HE HAS RIGHTS!.....i dont believe the people in them towers,on the planes,or in washington got to vote iffin they would get killed that day...but BIN LADEN has rights my dear...after all we would not be americans if we just strung the man up now would we?...look whats happening to the folks that took pics that violated human rights!...these people went over to fight the war and now their heads are on the chopping block!.....now mugway ya know the right thing to do with Bin Laden is to catch him...feed him better then some americans...tend to his health..make sure he is in a humane holding cell and interigate him without being cruel in any fashion or form...god forbid we violate his rights!...I mean after all who pays for all this...americans do...how could we simply hang the man I mean that just wouldnt be right.not to mention the americans that died...or the health care that most americans dont have...or that small family farm that is going under cause of all the importing going on....or the abuse that goes on here everyday..rape,murder...so on...we cant just hang a man....but we can give the sadistic son of a B better care then some americans....and of course thats what will be done....sorry..yer wish will not be granted however if ya watch the news enough im sure ya will see americans over seas get just that!....dale anne


Clipper....well golly....    Posted 05-18-2004 at 06:49:57       [Reply]  [No Email]
I don't know what you put in yer cawfee this morning gal....but I sure want some of it!!! LOL!!!Yer onna roll....don't stop now! :^)


dale anne    Posted 05-18-2004 at 07:44:02       [Reply]  [No Email]
i know i know....just being a medic at the time..getting the call but unable to dispatch due to very little recovery..just kills me....now hearing about the human rights due to the terrorist he77 what rights do we have ummmm lets see....do we have the right to say to our government %$#^ no we dont wanna rebuild!....%$#@ no we dont wanna send our children,husbands,and fathers to war cause we want them home to protect our own country!...&^%$ no we dont want to send billions of OUR dollars over seas while we still have hungry,and homeless people right here in america!....hmmm dont see many government agents coming out to arkansas saying well heres a check to rebuild this community cause we raised taxes so high that all the jobs left and went over seas......dont see anyone getting checks that have had all the cattle and chickens slaughtered..cause of imported animals bringing in illness.....I also dont see my sons getting the checks that foriegn students get to go to school...hmmm i pay my taxes and it seems to me that everyone else gets the pleasures of using that money....what i also dont see is BUSH addressing the issues at home that need taking care of...more police...teachers....new books for schools...more programs for children...finding ways to help america prosper by growing and selling goods right here at home!...nahh instead we send money to other countries and let elder people die cause they cant afford meds....let children go hungry and cold cause mom and dad couldnt work enough overtime to make the heat bill this month...i mean if they got the grants perhaps they could have got a better education!....how bout the hopsitals and the revolving doors that they now are turning out people still ill cause well hell the coverage ya have says we can only keep ya fer a few days then we cant milk it anymore so out the door ya go.....and just why is it that ya get a paycheck..it gets taxed...go to the store with that already taxed money and ya get taxed again...put a little of that twice taxed money in the bank and hey! ya taxed again at the end of the year!!!......once figured it out..was working part time...made 153.00...after taxes including going to store and buying what i needed for the week...i figured i got to kepp bout $70.00 out of that check to use....and what did i get fer my tax money hmmmm let me see...roads improved....ummm no......any useable grants...ummm no.....hmmm seems to me what i got was well the shaft!...gas going up...milk..taxes...lets see how the american people feel about BUSH when it cost more to go to work or buy food items then it is to go to work and make a living...and just think our grandchildren will be paying for this war also!...but with everything going up who can save money to send them to further education?...and where will the jobs be?...hmmmmm.....well i think i have the answer...they will have to move to another country.....claim themselves as refugees and sit back and collect the big fat american greenback that our government hands out like water to other countries.......enough fer now...ta ta...gonna get more coffee lol


Clipper....All valid....    Posted 05-18-2004 at 07:51:36       [Reply]  [No Email]
points to be sure there. BUT....to blame it ALL on one man don't register in my checkbook....yer fergetting the whole passel of idjits called CONGRESS....and while the country we live in ain't perfect it's sure better than any other place in the world.... and I for one won't pack up and leave. :^)


dale anne    Posted 05-18-2004 at 08:13:32       [Reply]  [No Email]
so true clipper...it is a many of folks that are amoung our government..however i was speaking as to the leader.....our country was built with the words....for the people...well i just dont see that much...I understand sending money to countries for the better of things..butto rebuild a country that first off doesnt even want us or the same country that defends what happen here in america...well that just aint smart as far as i see...and i dont see where FOR THE PEOPLE works into any of the government these days...yeah we get to vote...but it seems to stop at that point....we speak but are we heard?...i believe our words fall on deaf ears,we are rebuilding a country where they cut off an americans head and then show it on tv...is that not spitting in our faces...rebuilding that country will also better them same people that beheaded our american soldier...i dont know clipper....just seems wrong to me...and i also would never turn tail and run...I would stand to the bitter end even if it would mean sending my children to fight a war that i myself dont believe in....while on the homefront we are all fighting a war ourselves trying to keep our family and homes together while our loved one are away...and it is getting harder each and every day with prices going up...seeing our family friends get killed for people who didnt want our intervention to begin with....i dont know what else to say.....i just dont believe that this war is ever going to end. and if it does it will be at the price of to many of dying for it.to many american families being torn apart...to many children growing up without fathers or mothers...and so much debt for americans that it will take years and years to recover from........ dale anne


O.O.A.    Posted 05-18-2004 at 08:39:29       [Reply]  [No Email]
Some people spin pretty words , but you say it like it is. I like how you think . keep it up.


Clipper...with you...    Posted 05-18-2004 at 08:22:20       [Reply]  [No Email]
100% on that post dale.....seems like the politicians tell us one thing in order to get elected and then march to their own agenda once in office. I think the country would be a lot better off if Congress operated they way it was done in the early days of our country....3-4 months in Washington then back to real jobs in their own States.....one term only for elected office.


Melanie    Posted 05-18-2004 at 11:41:30       [Reply]  [No Email]
He77 yeah, Clipper, that's a great idea!!! If a pol isn't allowed to sit and rot on his fat behind, but actually stands or falls on the merits of what he did in his one short term, you'd see a lot more effort being put into "rebuilding" America, that's for dang sure. And like DaleAnn said, they can start with the homeless families and the elderly. Cut out the taxation on Social Security. Reform Medicare so it isn't just lipservice. Take back our Constitution and make it more than a book of guidelines to be loosely followed however some city, county or state wants to interpret it.
Oh, man. I guess we could all go on and on, right?


mud    Posted 05-18-2004 at 06:43:09       [Reply]  [No Email]
hit the nail on the head.


Paula    Posted 05-18-2004 at 05:42:07       [Reply]  [Send Email]
I see things a completely different way. Good thing this
is a free country right?

1. Freedom of speech means we don't all agree but no
one should be drowned out. What would we be fighting
for if consensus is forced?

2. If we were going to bomb and kill people who were
responsible for terrorism like Al Qaeda then we should
look first to our own allies Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
Saudi exports wahabisim, and Pakistan has been
selling WMD on the open market. All we've done in
Iraq is destabilze a hens tooth: a secular middle
eastern country. NOW it's full of terrorists.

3. I do not believe in blindly following a leader simply
because he is leader. He is far from infallible. The
germans seemed to have blindly followed Hitler.

4. Using 911 to justify killing Iraqis is weird in a scab-
picking kind of way.

JMO
Paula



dale anne    Posted 05-18-2004 at 05:41:01       [Reply]  [No Email]
sorry y'all consider me the bad apple of the bunch....i dont agree with all said...i do believe that we should all remember...I lived in Philadelphia at the time of 911 and was a medic that was ready for dispatch...however the call never came cause the recovery did not happen like our american people hoped it would. I also had flown from texas to philadelphia the day before on american arlines so it hit home hard!...i dont agree for a few reasons that i will list here and y'all can argue it and thats fine but i stand as firm on my beliefs as y'all do...first...we are sending millions of dollars to rebuild...why?...we have people here who struggle to make ends meet every day and the government tells us not enough money to expand programs to help these people out..S.S. may be non exsisting by the time myself or my children get old enough to collect......folks all over are losing jobs....have a friend whoms husband is over seas and she is now looking to move in with family members cause they dont make enough money to support the family of 4 while the hubby is fighting the war....and what about the family members of our soldiers...wonder if they agree on the war?....2nd...i dont believe that weapons of mass destruction exsist...chemical weapons...yes....if they did exsist why havent we found them?....perhaps we were not prepared?...the soldiers were not taught well enough as to what to look for?....hell we got people being blown up in hummers cause they were not equipped to withstand certain weapons..now they are sending over armor kits to fix this problem..well if ya ask me..ya gonna put folks in a hummer...send them into a battle field..ummmm dont ya think just a little that the doors,windows,and GAS TANK! should be armored?...and 3rd....all these people want is the right to practice religion...aint that what we want...who are we to say that the woman arent treated right or how they should do things if this is what they believe in....why is it gonna be better by us being their?....these people have lived like this a long time and maybe change isnt good to them..now im sure some want the change....however i dont think we need to be sticking our noses in other peoples affairs....if war has to be..go in take care of the issue..leave the common folks alone, commplete the mission and get out.....i could write on this for days...but im gonna end it here....i say support the folks fighting for us but i wouldnt put any stock at all into bush....do you think bush would be standing in the middle of a town or city that was expected to be under attack...NO!...he would have to be hidin so that he could keep the government running...well i say if your a true american and truely believe in why he started this war he would say the hell with hiding let the vice president take over in case of something happening to him and stand with and amoung the american people...feel the fear...take the same chances that he himself is putting others at risk for....sorry if i insulted anyone...tis is just my veiw and i dont think that my veiw is the only one and am always willing to listen to what others think...but this is how i see things at the current time......dale anne


Les    Posted 05-18-2004 at 06:09:19       [Reply]  [No Email]
What's not to believe about WMD? He had them, he used them and just yesterday, we found some. Or don't you think Sarin gas is capable of mass destruction? Ask the Japanese. Especially the ones that were on that subway that day.


fredo.    Posted 05-18-2004 at 06:08:12       [Reply]  [Send Email]
freedom of their religeon is to kill infidels.. guess who that is. and i hope it doesn't take another incident to change your minds, by loosing a [loved one to the therroest's attacks].
maybe we should wake up and smell the coffee.
fredo.


Old John    Posted 05-18-2004 at 05:21:17       [Reply]  [Send Email]

Thanks Cindi,

Good Thoughts & Good Words, Well said.
They needed saying.
'Til Later,
Old John


Les    Posted 05-18-2004 at 05:05:56       [Reply]  [No Email]
HEAR,HEAR!!! Extremely well said. And dittos to Steve and Clipper.


Texas    Posted 05-18-2004 at 05:04:17       [Reply]  [No Email]
You go girl!


Clipper....BRAVO!!    Posted 05-18-2004 at 04:40:59       [Reply]  [No Email]
Articulate and well said Cindi!! Thanks once again for a good writing.


Steve from TN    Posted 05-18-2004 at 04:31:08       [Reply]  [No Email]
Very well said. And Opec is helping the nay-sayers on purpose. They want the president out. They want another wormy guy back in that will let "little" acts of terrorism happen without taking charge and paying back the murderers. I am not the biggest fan of our president, but I am very proud of his stance againt the middle-eastern murderers. Flame me.


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