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Well i just have to comment....
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steve19438    Posted 07-21-2004 at 06:23:47       [Reply]  [Send Email]
on how my opposition to the IRAQ debacle somehow makes some people think(?) that i blame GW for 9/11.i fully support the Afgan action to wipe out the T-ban forces. it is Iraq that i have a real problem with. a short time ago my 18 yr. old son asked me what the Iraq war was all about, i could not give him a good answer. oh and btw., i WAS pushing him towards military service, but not now!

Burrhead    Posted 07-21-2004 at 12:19:25       [Reply]  [No Email]
I was reading a report yestidy that says Iran was the real backer on the 9.11 attack. Now they are trying to figure out if Scrub will get it lined out to attack Iran before November.

He wasted all his reserve military power on Iraq. Now he don't have the troops to invade Iran. Decisions decisions. Ennie meenie minney mo

When they did a run through of his re-election theme he is running on a platform of *you can't trust anyone but ME for Prez... we're at war*

deadcarp    Posted 07-21-2004 at 09:55:26       [Reply]  [No Email]
I look at it this way - do i think we belong in iraq? No. Are we there? Yeah. Should we pull out? No, not now that we've come this far. Fas as Saddam is concerned, good riddance. What's a war crime and why do the winners define it? The actions of Bush Jr have probably killed more people than Ouday & Cousay ever did. The issue now should become, how big a pig will his replacement become? That's what we have to settle in november here too. If my kids were service-age and asked me, i wouldn't want them in iraq either. Nor at the polls. A letter to a congressman will do a lot more than picking who sits up front. We have allowed the creation of an international mess and to me a pig is a pig, no matter what costume he wears. :)

screaminghollow    Posted 07-21-2004 at 08:55:34       [Reply]  [No Email]
Saddam has gassed and tortured folks for too long. There can be little doubt that he should have been deposed. HOWEVER, what the US recently did is a prime example of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. We really screwed up the planning for post war Iraq. Three very distinct cultural groups, that have been killing each other for a thousand years were only tolerating each other because Saddam killed them if they didn't. They are not going to get along under any form of democracy absent having their own separate governments. Now, the Al Quaida folks can stir things up easily, because to the US personnel, they look like the Iraqis. Unlike to what a lot of folks say, I got no WMD problem. Saddam had them in the past, he used them in the past, he was seeking additional parts and supplies, he had mobile labs capable of producing biological warfare agents. Those idiots who say none were found totally miss the point. The leader of MY country is in charge of the safety of MY community. If there is error, I prefer that it be on the side of My community's safety, rather than saying "oops" after some misguided radical extremist gets some anthrax or uranium from Iraq and releases it in downtown New York.
The horrible quagmire we are in now, results from lack of planning for the leadership vacuum after Saddam. Their economy is shot to H, their infrastructure needs to be rebuilt and updated, and we hadn't put an Iraqi civil security force in place soon enough. Thousands of former Iraqi police and soldiers could have been mustered into service and the US delayed far too long.
GW is the captain of this ship, and his crew is screwing up.
Even more shocking, is the pathetic lack of vision by the opposing party.
(By the way, my step son has a picture of Herman Munster next to a picture of Kerry, It is amazing how much they look alike.)
I don't believe there has been a war in the past 50 yrs that the US has handled competently (from a military, economic and political view.)
The radical element in the middle east does not now care and in the future will not care who is president of the US. To them, the US is the devil incarnate, these nuts want to kill Americans because we let girls go to school, because we let them drive and because we let them work and vote. They view us as the height of immorality because of the permissive nature of our society. The very existence and economic power of our culture threatens their beliefs. When a person has nothing but their faith, anything that threatens the faith, takes everything he has. Those men would rather die (and see it as their religous duty to die) defending their faith from American infidels. In western cultures, the idea that women were property existed into the 18th and early 19th centuries. A few American Neanderthals still think it is their right to bash their spouses whenever they think "she needs correction." How long will it take their culture and beliefs to assimilate the 21st century culture of the rest of the world? In a space of a few years, can we change thousands of years their thinking? Not likley! What is the alternative, if they go on trying to kill us? Must we sit by and wait till they make some move toward killing us? Must we preach toleration while letting some of them into our society, never knowing when some of them might strike? Do we hunt them down and kill them first? Wouldn't that make them even more determined to get us?

steve19438    Posted 07-21-2004 at 10:11:30       [Reply]  [Send Email]
i have just one problem with your post. if, as you say, GW is the capt. of the ship who then is ultimately responsible? GW signs the papers and gives the orders, where does the blame belong?

screaminghollow    Posted 07-21-2004 at 12:36:32       [Reply]  [No Email]
I thought everyone knows that the captain is at fault for any mishap with the ship regardless of who ultimately caused the problem. The analogy is even more appropriate since we the people would possibly also go down with the ship.

~LENORE    Posted 07-21-2004 at 09:27:28       [Reply]  [No Email]
"What is the alternative, if they go on trying to kill us? Must we sit by and wait till they make some move toward killing us? Must we preach toleration while letting some of them into our society, never knowing when some of them might strike? Do we hunt them down and kill them first? Wouldn't that make them even more determined to get us?

Interesting scan of the situation, screminghollow.
I may have missed it but, what do you suggest as a solution in place of the way we are doing it now?

screaminghollow    Posted 07-21-2004 at 12:40:51       [Reply]  [No Email]
No simple solutions here. How do you control their minds and re-educate them? Short of that, I suppose the need for survival dictates that we kill them first.

UHHHH THANX    Posted 07-21-2004 at 09:17:43       [Reply]  [No Email]
Not quite sure how it could have been put any better. Well done.

Griz    Posted 07-21-2004 at 07:23:01       [Reply]  [No Email]
How's this for starters?

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq
during the month of January..... In the fair city
of Detroit there were 35 murders in the monthof
January. That's just one American city, about as
deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.

When some claim President Bush shouldn't have
started this war, state the following ...FDR...
led us into World War II. Germany never attacked
us: Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were
lost, an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman... finished that war and started one in
Korea, North Korea never attacked us. From
1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of
18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy... started the Vietnam conflict
in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.

Johnson... turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From
1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of
5,800 per year.

Clinton... went to war in Bosnia without UN or
French consent, Bosnia never attacked us. He was
offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three
times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has
attacked us on multiple occasions.

In the two years since terrorists attacked us
President Bush has liberated two
countries,crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida,
put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North
Korea without firing a shot, and captured a
terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own

The Democrats are complaining about how long the
war is taking, but It took less time to take Iraq
than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch
Davidian compound. That was a 51 day operation.

We've been looking for evidence of chemical
weapons in Iraq for less time than it took
Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing

Or how about evidence of WMD's direct from the United Nations that the liberal media refuses to report on ...

Or how about the thousands of soldiers stories that speak about the wonderful things that the US is doing for the Iraqi people that the media never tells us about. My cousin just married a marine who leaves in a week for his second tour of duty. He had the option of taking a desk job or going back into combat. He chose the latter as he knew we were doing the right thing. He has seen the faces of little children who were tasting freedom for the first time ever! We know that Iraq had WMD's as they had used them in Iran years ago. We now know, according to the UN documents, that WMD's were still in Sadaam's possession.

I don't know how it could be any clearer.....

steve19438    Posted 07-21-2004 at 11:12:54       [Reply]  [Send Email]
german submarines were sinking us ships off the coast of NJ long before the Japanese attacked PG.

RN    Posted 07-22-2004 at 21:43:42       [Reply]  [No Email]
and 'neutral' American destroyers were attacking German subs scouting England bound convoys in international waters. Declared enemies, pick a side. RN

steve19438    Posted 07-21-2004 at 11:14:21       [Reply]  [Send Email]

that shoulda been "PH"!

Jumper    Posted 07-21-2004 at 07:41:56       [Reply]  [No Email]
Griz - Can't say it much better than that.

As an ex-Marine, I can comfortably say that our volunteer force is certainly prepared for what lays ahead of them. Sure, some are in it for the college education but they know what the possibilities are ... that is what boot camp (basic training) is all about. Moreso to the point, these fine men and women in our military spend thousands of hours training for the reality they are currently a part of.

No - war is not pretty. Most times it is horrific. That does not change the fact that our Commander in Chief has a responsibility to Americans to do what he feels is right to protect them. The beauty of this country is that we have the freedom to disagree and voice our opinions without being shot by the police/military. That freedom comes at a price.

Semper Fi

Griz    Posted 07-21-2004 at 07:47:19       [Reply]  [No Email]
And it is that price that we as Americans must pay in order to stay sovreign and free. Do I want to lose my son in war? No, but I am willing to send him so that you, Iraqi's and I can know that we are safe. Like any father, my only wish is that I was younger so that I could take my son's place.

I feel for you Steve and your time of internal turmoil but Freedom does come at a price and that price may just be our children.


steve19438    Posted 07-21-2004 at 07:57:25       [Reply]  [Send Email]
i truly hope that your son returns safe and well.

Les    Posted 07-21-2004 at 11:35:51       [Reply]  [No Email]
Then help him out by getting off this stupid bandwagon you're on and letting the whole chain of command do its job without you adding to the problem.

lamadon    Posted 07-21-2004 at 14:45:16       [Reply]  [No Email]
AND I GIVE THANKS AND MY GRADITUDE TO YOUR SON AND ALL OUR TROOPS IN ALL THEATERS OF OPPERATIONS, Pi$$ ON THEM THAT DONT HAVE THE VISION TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO ACHEIVE. you couldnt get them to understand what its like to be opressed and not be free enough to try to spread there missguided opinions on other non self thinkers.....I belive they call them sheep. I being a first generation us citizen of this great country whos father became a US citizen to fight in ww2, korea and was turned down when he tryed to rejoin during veitnam because he knew first hand what there was to lose if "WE" didnt fight for "OUR" freedoms and beliefs. I dont know what they learned in there homes as children but I was taught that we should support whoever the leader of our country is. I dont necessarily think all of GWB's desissions are good ones, however I do think that they are better desissions than whould have been made if the the philanderer's vice whould have been sitting in that chair! But I still whould have supported his decisions, but that is just how "I" was rasied.

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