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Another view (political)
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~Lenore    Posted 08-11-2004 at 07:59:43       [Reply]  [No Email]
WASHINGTON - It is been 30 years since the Swift Boat Navy veterans, now watching film clips from the Kerry campaign, served in Vietnam with the Democratic presidential nominee.
One Swiftee commented, "All the time he had that camera, making pictures."

Another said, "I recognize the one where he's prancing around, dragging his M-16 in the mud - that's the cover of 'Tour of Duty' (Kerry's latest book)."

For two months in Vietnam, Steve Gardner was a gunner's mate aboard John Kerry's Swift Boat.

Gardner said, "We thought he was just making home movies. I mean, he'd go ashore. One of the guys would take pictures of him, and then they'd bring it back, and he'd get back on the boat; always in a place where it was safe."

Gardner went on, "See this ammo hanging on him? It was idiotic. He didn't do that. See those rounds? Those are fragmentation grenades."

He added, "The grenades themselves were against the law to have on our boat. Those were fragmentation ones on our boat, the only ones we could carry were anti-concussion grenades…"

Swiftee Van O'Dell said, "To wear bandoliers of ammo, or bandoliers of grenades was stupid, because you're on a Swift Boat, all your ammunition and weapons are beside you."

Gardner remarked, "There's not any question about it. Those were staged. They are absolutely were staged."

Another Swiftee, Larry Thurlow, commented on Kerry's outfit and gear in the film, saying, "His boondogger socks, shirt and pants might have been issue, but the rest of this get-up is strictly for the home audience. If you're over there, you're going to rust those bullets up in 24 hours, if you have them strung across your body [as Kerry had them]."

The vets said that now, 35-plus years later, they saw what part of it was intended for. Kerry's total agenda, which was, they said, to be president.

But it is what Kerry said after he returned from Vietnam that most outrages these veterans. Kerry's statements, they say, gave comfort to the enemy, even as fellow soldiers were fighting and dying on the front lines.

Tom Wright was a Swift Boat officer in John Kerry's unit. He said, "I don't think there's any other word besides 'betrayal.'"

Wright continued, "It was very painful to me, personally, because I knew the man and I couldn't believe he was saying the things he was saying. I just couldn't believe it. "

Odell said, "The main people on television touting this were Jane Fonda and John Kerry. Well, John Kerry stuck right out, because I was with him the full time I was in Vietnam. "

After his abbreviated four-month tour in Vietnam, John Kerry had become an anti-war activist, and eventually a spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

In 1971 he was in Washington for a protest, and landed on Meet the Press, where he accused U.S. soldiers and commanders of war crimes, and said that he had committed the same kind of atrocities.

Grant Hibbard, a Navy lieutenant commander and Kerry's direct supervisor for three months, said, "He actually said 'he' committed war crimes, but he called all the shipmates and officers, and the men that served with him 'criminals,' that they were committing these terrible atrocities. And they were there 12 months, unless they were seriously wounded or came home in a body bag."

Another Kerry boatmate, Bob Elder, said, "We were just devastated to see that a man who bonded so closely to us, who took the same oath of loyalty to each other as we took, would come home and do such an atrocious thing as to - in front of the American public and Congress - accuse us all of being war criminals."

On April 22nd of that year, Kerry was invited to address the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Clad in green fatigues and wearing his combat medals, 27-year-old Kerry recounted an epidemic of war crimes that he claimed American soldiers had committed in Southeast Asia.

Kerry said, "... not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis, with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

Admiral Roy Hoffman, Kerry's commander and the former commander of all Swift Boat operations in Vietnam, responded, "What atrocities?! I never saw them, and I covered Vietnam from the northern border all the way to the Cambodian border, and most of the rivers and canals!"

"It was a flat lie!" Hoffman asserted. "A gross - it wasn't exaggeration - it was an absolute lie!"

With American forces still on the ground in Vietnam, Kerry's alleged American atrocities took on disturbing detail: " times they personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam."

Kerry went on. "The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest 'nothing' in history."

Admiral Hoffman charged, "It was a personal assault on every man bearing arms in Vietnam."

O'Dell said, "He didn't have to support the war. But what he did is, he damned us by telling us we were baby killers, rapists, murderers, and committed atrocities. As a result of what Kerry said, when I returned and went to a college campus, I was called a baby killer. I was called a murderer."

O'Dell continued, "I was in Vietnam for 13 months, three times longer than Kerry. I was [with the] Swift Boats the whole time. I saw people giving food, aid, [and] medical attention to the citizens of Vietnam. I didn't see atrocities. I never saw murders, rapes, and baby killers."

Swiftee Richard Pees said, "That is the thing that had bothered me more than anything else. We put ourselves at risk many times, travelling through villages at very slow speed, at idle speed, so as not to sink or swamp the sampans or hurt anybody. That's what I saw - people going out of their way to protect the lives of the local population."

Pees continued, "The atrocities he talked about just didn't happen. And unfortunately, there are many Americans who don't know that. Many Americans really believe all that stuff Kerry and his Vietnam Veterans against the War fed them."

Months later, on the Dick Cavett Show, Kerry admitted that he had never personally witnessed any atrocities.

The day after his Senate testimony, Kerry joined other veterans tossing their medals away at the U.S. Capitol. Kerry later denied he threw away his medals; he said he had only discarded his ribbons.

But some veterans say the speech that slandered a generation of soldiers made Kerry an overnight political celebrity.

Tom Wright said, "It was totally self-serving; to get the recognition to get to the next step he was going to take."

Soon after his Senate testimony, Kerry was asked on 60 Minutes, if he wanted to be president. "No, I don't want to be president," Kerry responded.

Kerry even authored a book in 1971, "The New Soldier." It included his testimony and that of other veteran protesters alleging war atrocities, some later discredited.

The book features politically-charged photos of U.S soldiers, like a cover shot mocking the Iwo Jima Memorial, showing U.S. Marines carrying an upside-down American flag.

It is a cover that will not even show on its website. Kerry will not allow the book to be e-printed, and it is hard to obtain it. It sells for $500 a copy.

When asked about his war crimes comments this April on Meet The Press, Kerry called his language honest, but "a little bit excessive." He said he was proud that he stood up and took the position to oppose it.

Admiral Hoffman said, "The only thing he has said is 'maybe' he was a little over the top. He still has not apologized or changed his opinion on whether we were murderers or not."

An anti-Kerry commercial now running by the Swift vets has been denounced as deplorable by Sen. John McCain (R-AZ). The former POW himself once charged that anti-war testimony from that 1971 committee was some of the most effective propaganda used against prisoners of war.

The veterans say that is what most disturbs them about John Kerry.

Steve Gardner commented, "He is a traitor. The things he did…the treason he committed at the 1971 committee hearings… are the key to the guys who lost their life at the Hanoi Hilton."

Bob Elder said, "The things they endured torture to avoid saying, John Kerry freely went before Congress and accused them - and us and all the men who died in Vietnam of being: war criminals."

Another Swiftee, Jack Chenoweth, said, "This has nothing to do with politics. It has to do with character, with integrity; it has to do with honesty. It has to do with the truth about a man who has lied, and lied, and lied. "

Swift Boat Officer Wright said, "People need to know - the citizens need to know."

Hibbard remarked, "He served four months and one day in the country; the rest of us served 12 months. He came back and lied. ..... And betrayed his shipmates. There's no doubt he's unfit. He lied then, and he's lying now."

tortmort    Posted 08-11-2004 at 20:00:55       [Reply]  [Send Email]
You are so right about this. We are to believe that 250 brave veterans are all lying and Kerry is telling the truth. Medical Doctors, Admirals, officers, true war heros by the hundreds are all liars and the worthless coward Kerry is telling the truth. First, he repeatedly lied about being in Cambodia, this is undispted. Even Kerry has shut his mouth about that. Second, he lied again and again about his medals that he tossed, then did not toss, "Ribbons Medals, they were interchangeable back then." Liar. Those on his boat who support him spent about 3 to 4 weeks with him on average. Every single commanding officer he every had is against him. He is the only one out of over 3000 swift boat veterans who "bugged out" and left early during his "tour of duty." Four months and the coward ran home after a self inflicted tiny cut and lied about the brave men still in Vietnam. He never missed a single day of service due to any of his Purple Heart injuries, two of which he inflicted on himself. I could go on and on about this liar but most telling was his demand that President Bush release his military records. Bush did so and then he had the gall to refuse to do so. He has refused to this day to release his records. All of his lying would be exposed by his records. He should be proud to release his records but he is a lying coward. Leftist tried to suppress the military vote in Florida in the last election and it is no surprise as our great and honorable soldiers and sailors support "W" big time. I'll stand with the vast majority of veterans and current members of our armed forces. Four more years.

Burrhead    Posted 08-11-2004 at 20:49:46       [Reply]  [No Email]
good god I want 2 sacks of whatever yer smoking and a bong.

MORE OF THE OTHER SIDE    Posted 08-11-2004 at 13:18:03       [Reply]  [No Email]

Comments of Jim Rassman whose life was saved by Kerry:

None of those in the attack ad by the Swift Boat group actually served on Kerry's boat. And their statements are contrary to the accounts of Kerry and those who served under him.

Jim Rassmann was the Army Special Forces lieutenant whom Kerry plucked from the water. Rassmann has said all along that he was under sniper fire from both banks of the river when Kerry, wounded, helped him aboard. Rassmann is featured in an earlier Kerry ad, in fact, (see script at left) saying "he (Kerry) risked his life to save mine."

On Aug. 10, Rassmann wrote a vivid account of the rescue in the Wall Street Journal that contradicts the Kerry accusers. Rassmann said that after the first explosion that disabled PCF-3:

Rassmann: Machine-gun fire erupted from both banks of the river and a second explosion followed moments later. The second blast blew me off John's swift boat, PCF-94, throwing me into the river. Fearing that the other boats would run me over, I swam to the bottom of the river and stayed there as long as I could hold my breath.

When I surfaced, all the swift boats had left, and I was alone taking fire from both banks. To avoid the incoming fire I repeatedly swam under water as long as I could hold my breath, attempting to make it to the north bank of the river. I thought I would die right there. The odds were against me avoiding the incoming fire and, even if I made it out of the river, I thought I thought I'd be captured and executed. Kerry must have seen me in the water and directed his driver, Del Sandusky, to turn the boat around. Kerry's boat ran up to me in the water, bow on, and I was able to climb up a cargo net to the lip of the deck. But, because I was nearly upside down, I couldn't make it over the edge of the deck. This left me hanging out in the open, a perfect target. John, already wounded by the explosion that threw me off his boat, came out onto the bow, exposing himself to the fire directed at us from the jungle, and pulled me aboard.

Rassmann said he recommended Kerry for the Silver Star for that action, and learned only later that the Bronze Star had been awarded instead. "To this day I still believe he deserved the Silver Star for his courage," he wrote. Rassmann described himself as a retired lieutenant with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. "I am a Republican, and for more than 30 years I have largely voted for Republicans," Rassmann said. But he said Kerry "will be a great commander in chief."

"This smear campaign has been launched by people without decency," Rassmann said. "Their new charges are false; their stories are fabricated, made up by people who did not serve with Kerry in Vietnam."

(Fellow posters, sometimes it helps to dig deep for more of the facts, especially in these days as we prepare to make choices at the polls.)

tortmort    Posted 08-11-2004 at 20:20:57       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Hey no name. Thanks for taking time off from your job at M.I.T. to enlighten us. Sorry to say that you are wrong. Specifically, the gunner on Kerry's boat is against him and witnessed the self-inflicted tiny cut Purple Heart injury that required a Band Aid. "Rassman" is a registered Democrat. This is a fact. Wrong again. There were numerous witnesses, many many witnesses who state without exception that Kerry fled when one of the four boast hit the mine. That is right Kerry the coward fled the scene while the other three boats remained and fished out the other three sailors in the water. There was no enemy fire which is the only reason Kerry returned. Why don't you dig a little deeper. There are hundreds of Swift Boats veterans against Kerry. I know, they are all liars. And they many many wirtnesses who dispute registered Democrat "Rassman's" account that there was enemy fire. But they are all liars as well.

big fred    Posted 08-11-2004 at 14:27:23       [Reply]  [No Email]
But then, Mr Rassman didn't actually serve on the same boat as Kerry either. He was in fact not even in the Navy. He was Army Special Forces. He just happened to cross paths with Kerry (as a passenger on his boat) the day he was rescued.

O.S.    Posted 08-11-2004 at 14:36:11       [Reply]  [No Email]
Does it matter? Rassman would have been deadern a mackerel if Kerry hadn't ordered the boat turned around and gone back and picked him up!!!
And I doubt as he lunged over the side of the boat, he asked, "Uh, you a Republican or a Democrat?" Uh uh! All he wanted was his A$$ saved, and Kerry didn't care which party he belonged to when he was insturmental in saving his life.

big fred    Posted 08-11-2004 at 20:03:15       [Reply]  [No Email]
Did I say it mattered? Did I make any value judgements either way? Nope, just pointing out that he didn't serve on the same boat as Kerry, just like the fellers he's criticizing. He can serve as a reliable witness to only those events he saw.

Burrhead    Posted 08-11-2004 at 20:23:44       [Reply]  [No Email]
I bet that Rassman feller is sure glad Kerry was'nt just another draftdodging Tx National Guard flying recon missions over Enron that day.

big fred    Posted 08-12-2004 at 11:19:01       [Reply]  [No Email]
I dunno, according to his story, it was Kerry's boat he fell offa. ;o)

Reido in MO    Posted 08-11-2004 at 11:00:34       [Reply]  [No Email]
Yea Lenore, I seen this on the news this AM and I would have to reason that there is NO WAY that all of these veterans could be lying, and still be telling the same story.

salesman    Posted 08-11-2004 at 14:25:30       [Reply]  [No Email]
I have a bridge you might be interested in buying

bob ny    Posted 08-11-2004 at 15:59:46       [Reply]  [No Email]
if that bridge is the one in brooklyn thats my bridge i bought it from hillary

The Other Side    Posted 08-11-2004 at 10:57:14       [Reply]  [No Email]
Fair minded folks read facts from both sides, so here are some Bush truths:

Records and References:
At least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).
AWOL from National Guard and Deserted the military during a time of war.
Refuse to take drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.
All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view. All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.
All minutes of meetings for any public corporation I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.
Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public review.
GWB note: For personal references please speak to my daddy or uncle James Baker (They can be reached at their offices of the Carlyle Group for war-profiteering.

Reido in MO    Posted 08-11-2004 at 11:14:22       [Reply]  [No Email]
Aint it funny that what you're alleging against GWB sounds so similar to what Clinton was being accused of? Which side was you on then? Or do I need to ask.

steve19438    Posted 08-11-2004 at 09:19:09       [Reply]  [Send Email]
if kerry was indeed taking those photos and movies as part of a plan to be president 35 yars later his actions following his service are just plain inexplicable! c'mon, do you really belive he had any plan whatsoever to run for president 35 yrs. ago.
i was in vietnam in 72 and have a few photos of myself with M-16 in hand. i NEVER actually was issued the weapon and NEVER fired it.

Burrhead    Posted 08-11-2004 at 10:03:08       [Reply]  [No Email]
Steve yer a little bit behind the news.

earlier today we have discovered that Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have released the info to confirm that Kerry is, I repeat IS, actually an evil test tube baby created by the the X File Cigarette Man just after the Roswell incident.

Kerry's sole mission in life is to take over America in order to dismantle the military and teach evolution in our churches.

Each voter will be issued one case of Heinz ketchup or dill pickles to be displayed as a hood ornament on our alternative energy powered hoopties when Chinese Communist visit to check his progress.

steve19438    Posted 08-11-2004 at 10:22:49       [Reply]  [Send Email]
dang!!! i gotta keep up.

Burrhead    Posted 08-11-2004 at 11:41:05       [Reply]  [No Email]
I ordered the $2 program. It's awful handy to keep up with all the war info.

Here's the addy

Mr Ken Lay
c/o CheneyBurton Inc
1600 Pennsylvania Ave
Washington, DC

Red Dave    Posted 08-11-2004 at 09:04:57       [Reply]  [No Email]

Aw Lenore, Ya shouldn't oughta throw a skunk in the crowd just when they are gathering for ketchup boys coronation.
Ain't it amazing how the war that liberals love to hate has become their rallying point?
Now they want us to elect a self-professed violator of the Geneva conventions. Crazy world.

fred    Posted 08-11-2004 at 08:07:20       [Reply]  [No Email]
believe what you want . you people have your mind made up come he]] or high water. as mr burrhead says check facts before making up minds. article in paper today as to when people were stationen and in was in later time field. sorry to vent but I stick to facts

Mike in tn    Posted 08-11-2004 at 13:38:47       [Reply]  [No Email]
Well if it is in the paper today, it must be a fact. I don't have a clue where on earth anyone would even begin to actually find the facts. If anyone does know please inform me.

DigitalMat    Posted 08-11-2004 at 08:34:41       [Reply]  [No Email]
Very little fact to stick to, actually. Both sides are attempting to put themselves in the best light, and the other in the worst. That's politics. I think what is said by either means very little. The only reliable info is what actions a candidate has taken. Look into the votes, the executive orders, etc. What has a candiate actually DONE? That tells you what a candidate really stands for. All the rest, (from both sides) is just a big infomercial. Ah, the age of advertising.

fred    Posted 08-11-2004 at 09:49:33       [Reply]  [No Email]
the last sentence is proably wher e the ecomonic boost relly is what a waste of that 85% OF FORUMN kNOW HOW GOING TO VOTE WITHOUT ANY MORE HELP. That money could be spent in better means and not tax cuts either

Clod    Posted 08-11-2004 at 11:02:15       [Reply]  [No Email]
Burrhead must be working for CBS news now. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Burrhead
08-11-2004 10:03:08

Report to Moderator

[Reply] [No Email]
Steve yer a little bit behind the news.
earlier today we have discovered that Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have released the info to confirm that Kerry is, I repeat IS, actually an evil test tube baby created by the the X File Cigarette Man just after the Roswell incident.

Kerry's sole mission in life is to take over America in order to dismantle the military and teach evolution in our churches.

Each voter will be issued one case of Heinz ketchup or dill pickles to be displayed as a hood ornament on our alternative energy powered hoopties when Chinese Communist visit to check his progress.

Dan Rather JR.?

Burrhead    Posted 08-11-2004 at 13:21:17       [Reply]  [No Email]
Now you did it Clod I'm calling the post office and have them hold yer mail.

fred    Posted 08-11-2004 at 12:17:10       [Reply]  [No Email]
better than fox you can believe cbs

Clod    Posted 08-11-2004 at 17:22:57       [Reply]  [No Email]
Oh ,CBS..Wasn't Dan Rather a Marine?

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