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To add your comments to this topic, click on one of the 'Reply' links below.

One more thought on immigrants......
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Cindi    Posted 08-02-2003 at 07:07:01       [Reply]  [No Email]
In my experience it is not hard to send a paycheck to Mexico when you are living in the states for next to nothing.

Here's how it happens.

Juan and Maria Lopez are temporary citizens with two kids. They are in HUD housing, are recieving food stamps, and are on medicaid and medicare. Plus Maria is working under the table cleaning houses for cash, eight dollars an hour while the going rate is ten.

Juan is working a real job but claiming he has six or eight kids, (so less taxes will be withheld) even though he's only twenty years old. He doesn't care about getting caught, because he only plans to stay for a few years any way, then he'll disappear back to Mexico when things get hot and people start asking too many questions.

Jose, Willy, Andres, Leonel, Wenceslao, and Miguel, come over on temporary work visas. They live with Juan and Maria. They pay Juan and Maria rent every week to share a two bedroom house that Juan and Maria are getting basically free anyway. There's another income opportunity for Juan and Maria. They all benefit from the food stamps.

Every Friday they send money home to Mexico. In a years time they will have amassed enough money to live on in Mexico for five years. They go back to Mexico eventually, wait three or four years and then start the process over again. How do I know?

I just described our former roofing crew. Even the names are correct. Why did we allow it to happen? Try hiring a kid out of school or a white man to do the job that these men did. They refuse. We paid GOOD money. Ten dollars an hour to start, and still couldn't find legal citizens who would work all day every day, not whine and complain all day, and would be thrilled with their pay, not demanding raises every six weeks.

We are enablers. We do this to ourselves, when we hire that eight dollar an hour maid, or landscaper who can't speak english because he's cheaper. These people would not HAVE WORK here if we didn't allow it to happen. If you've got a teenage boy who would rather sit behind a computer or flip burgers in the A/C because he can't 'work in the heat', that's the beginning of the problem.

In twenty years time, at the rate things are going, the skilled labor trades will belong to the hispanics. Lanscaping, roofing, citrus, and other agriculture services, anything that involves working in the elements. Hook line and sinker. Granted they may not get their start legally, but they will WORK. They will learn a trade, and then just like us, after they become legalized, become eleigable for grants and loans, and they go into business for themselves, they will hire more illegals because that's all there is.

If we want it to change, we need to decide right NOW that not every one of our children are destined to be lawyers, or doctors or acountants or whatever. Get them out there at thirteen and fifteen and sixteen and let them know that hard work is a part of life. Sweating is NOT life threatening. Manning a shovel is NOT beneath them.
Evaluate your child before you start seeking funding for continuing education. EVERY CHILD DOES NOT NEED TO GO TO COLLEGE!!! OKAY?

We are GIVING AWAY our skilled labor trades. We have to have roofers and landscapers and pickers and haulers and so on. Question is, do we want to give away these job opportunities to folks that are sending the money out of the states?

My boy works in the groves right along side the Mexicans, so do my girls. It's not pretty and it's not pleasant, we pick our own oranges. It's a little taste of he11. But I'll be dammed if I'm going to perpetuate the problem. That's my contribution to this mess.

If you have to push your kid through school, if he averages b's and c's on his report card, then just maybe continuing education is not the best thing for him. Put a shovel in his hand and watch him blossom physically and learn one of the trades that we are giving away to folks who know how to work and don't feel that it is below them. But you have to start early. You can't put a kid out there at graduation and expect him to be able to keep up. Start early.

If at fourteen or fifteen he's still saying..."I don't know what my 'career' is going to be", then he's a likely candidate for a skilled labor job. Get him in it! We can't all be veterinarians and computer programmers, and communications experts. Some of us have to put the roofs on, and get the walls up, and put the plumbing in. There is GOOD money in the skilled labor trades, granted it's hard work, but it also has it's rewards. Like being able to communicate with our neighbors and contractors in english.

I do not begrudge any of these Mexican immigrants a thing they get, because we are handing it to them on a silver platter. They have no competition for the labor trades. We need to wake up and realize that there is a natural process of elimination that we are ignoring. Some kids are not cut out for eight more years of school, and may not even be happy doing it, and guess what....may not even be willing or capable of graduating high school (gasp!) but we feel as parents that it is our duty to push them into it.

My son wants to drop out at sixteen and get a job. Guess what......I could....err couldN'T care less. (grin)

I know if I make him stay in school he'll be miserable and stay in trouble. This way, he'll get a real education in my opinion, on how to make a living.

Paula (the durned foreign    Posted 08-04-2003 at 13:33:13       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Okay, I have a tech job. I'm a research assistant in a
lab with the NIH. The work is huge but it's not
physically hard. In addition I have two part time jobs -
one at barn to pay for dressage lessons (work two
nights feeding 17horses and get 1 free private lesson
and all the extra riding for excercising horses), and one
as an animal caretaker at my veterinarian's to cover
incidental costs for construction of my new home. Here
are my observations:

1. There is an inverse relationship between amount of
physical work and level of education (generally
speaking). People like me work a lot less hard than
people without degrees for the most part. I suffered a
culture shock of sorts hauling my first square bales
(they didn't look that heavy on the Waltons) a few years
ago. Caretaking (animal caretaking and general
janitorial) is also quite physical.

I can't help but observe though, that my high falutin' job
provides a lot more coverage (medical and disability)
than my high physical demand jobs. And it seems that
the physical jobs risk more wear and tear than the lab
job. So if caretaking and farmhanding were my only
jobs (if that's what I qualified for) and I hurt myself, I
would be SOL both in terms of lacking adequate
savings or medica and disability coverage, and my
ability to do something else.

If I wanted to change disciplines now, I would have less
of a problem. Bachelor's and Master's degrees seem to
grant you all kinds of credibility in the job market even
when you're looking at a position from entry level. I
could go back to school with a lot less hassle than
someone without a teriary or secondary degree. So the
high degrees give you a lot of flexibility. I could choose
to do physical labor now, but with no HS degree I
coudln't choose to do a technical job.

Lastly, and this might be the new-immigrant mindset,
but I'm in a country where literally you could be illitirate
till you're 60, learn to read, get your GED, go to
community college get an associates degree, transfer
to a 4year institution, get a bachelor's degree, take a
master's program, a PHD program, go to medical
school, etc. I'm fully taking advantage of such

Look at it this way, as much as we seem to be lacking
workers in the field, we are lacking technicians in the
lab. There is the same influx of foreign workers in
science it seems. So what is the answer?


RichZ    Posted 08-04-2003 at 05:24:44       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Cindi, I couldn't agree more with what you said, except for one thing. I do think it's important for kids to finish high school. Many trades require a high school diploma to become an apprentice. A high school diploma is often a requirement for all sorts of skilled trades jobs. I have several friends that didn't finish high school, and all but one went back to get a high school diploma, because the lack of one was holding them back. Of course, the one friend I have didn't go back, and she is an extremely talented writer, and an extrememly intelligent person. Her writing abilities are on the verge of being recognized, and she will soon have a high paying career, but she is the exception to the rule in my opinion.

I can tell you that college does not make a person more prepared for the world, and does not make a person smarter. Often people who have a skilled trade can make more money than someone with a PHD. Higher education is not all it is cracked up to be.

RichZ    Posted 08-04-2003 at 05:33:31       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Oooppppps!!! I was wrong with my above statement. My writer friend did go back and get her GED.

Know what you say, before you say it, I always say!!! And that time I didn't!!!!


Redneck    Posted 08-03-2003 at 03:57:47       [Reply]  [No Email]
Your absolutely right on all accounts.

The way I see it,the only way that these wild haired professors and the rest of the overpaids in the college machine can keep their overpaid jobs is to make us think they and their say so are needed for us to just survive.I realize it to a point but when you require a Bull$hi!! degree to drive a trash truck,that's exactly what it is!

Reminds me of the CDL crap that came up a few years back.They said they wanted all the truck drivers to be professionals,to be really quallified.After an old driver on a yard was let go because he could not pass the hearing test,they hired a young,just qulified driver from one of the driving schools.It took them about two days before they begged the older man to come back long long enough to straighten the yard out,because this young man could simply not back a trailer.BUT HE WAS QUALIFIED!He had the paper to prove it.

magpie    Posted 08-03-2003 at 06:45:18       [Reply]  [No Email]
Your right, it's pretty hard to learn honest work by sitting in a classroom. I have never been asked what sort of education I had, only how much experience. Mind you, I haven't looked for a job for 20 years. I have a daughter with a university education, I am proud of her, but I am amazed at what she dosen't know.

Taylor Lambert    Posted 08-03-2003 at 01:28:12       [Reply]  [No Email]
My brother has a friend whose mother is on DIsability for being over weight and the father is almost on it claiming he has a badback. The thing that bothers me is they are always well enough to mow the lawn go shopping work in the garden hunt camp and so forth. They complain that I have 2 Mexican friend that are a little older than me that help dad and me around the house. I pay thm 10.00 an hour on my jobs and dad pays 10.00 an hour. Its worth it to have som3eone that wont show up hung over or that will try to borrow money and never show up again.
My brotheres friend has helped me before and he handed me a list of things he wouldnt do.
1. is shovel 2. spread hay on sewer lines4. use a grease gun .work in above 90 degree temps. Juan and Havy work hard and I get in the trenches and help to. I beleivin fair pay for any workrk done for me

Jimbob    Posted 08-02-2003 at 20:13:49       [Reply]  [No Email]
A house builder in Ypsilanti, MI could not take as many custom home orders as he used to. The kids refuse to work summer jobs that require labor or at times any job. The pay was $11 an hour to start with other incentives.

The kids want to play video games & party during the summer. Their parents have money so there you go. It is true the immigrants perform labor work that others do not want. Try harvest time. The harvest workers are about all Mexican up here in MI.

Morgan    Posted 08-02-2003 at 19:15:40       [Reply]  [No Email]
Cindi, we know a young man who quit school during his 9th grade year when he was sixteen. He is a 25 year old who could pass for a 50 year old doing manual labor. He works for a tire company driving a service truck and fixes flats for these local farmers. He has tried to better himself, even tried to join the Army but cannot pass the GED. He blames his parents for letting him quit school, now you see him in the middle of night during harvest wrastling those big tractor tires around earning just barely enough to pay child support. After a week of changing tires, he can barely walk, his arms will be cut to pieces and his hands are all scarred up. I can't imagine what he will look like when he is 30 years old. He has no job skills other than changing tires or fixing flats on those big tractors.
This young man who I am referring to is not hispanic, he is anglo.

I would recommend at least a high school education that way if something goes wrong, the kid could at least go to a trade school or go to the service. This is something to think about.

Cindi    Posted 08-03-2003 at 03:26:28       [Reply]  [No Email]
Fred and I are both 43 years old. We have applied for numerous jobs over the years. He has a high school diploma and I have a GED. I got it when I was considering joining the police force. It was required.

Other than that one instance, I have never and Fred has NEVER been asked to show his diploma.

Roughly twenty five years in the work industry. NO request for this diploma that supposedly is so important.

magpie    Posted 08-02-2003 at 21:42:30       [Reply]  [No Email]
Why can't he get into driving truck or operating equipment or something similar that dosen't require as much labor? You sure don't need much schooling for that.

Morgan    Posted 08-03-2003 at 10:49:50       [Reply]  [No Email]
In my state, you have to be able to pass a test to get a CDL. Wake up. In the past you could make it without a high school education, but now, in the world that we live in today, you need at least some higher education or at least a trade school.
Go ahead and let your kids drop out of high school but you keep them at home and support them and don't send them out to go on welfare for the rest of us to support. I don't believe any one of you has ever had a real manual labor job because not only does the boss give you a shovel, he gives you a time allotment to dig a hole. I am not talking about manual labor in the military, or at your home with your family where you can sit down and take a break, I am talking about working for people who can care less for your concern and the minute you have a heat stroke or if you get hurt and can't do it, your out of there, because the boss man knows there is a whole list of illiterate people who needs the job.

ret    Posted 08-02-2003 at 16:19:54       [Reply]  [No Email]
Cindi. You say they are in a hud project, he doesn't care if he is caught lieing about his deductions and they are living in the states for next to nothing. Try this if you are a citizen. Try to get a loan or a grant if you are american. Maria is working under the table for money, if she is caught, no problem, ignorance. I agree, they can work, and do. Trouble is, there still has to be jobs for the ones with no trade , jobs that used to pay very well, auto assembly work, steel mill work, slaughter house work. They all used to pay a decent wage to live on. They are all going , and if you read the headlines in AOL, you seen how the white collar jobs are really disappearing out of this country to India. We are going down a slippery slope we haven't gone before, I am afraid that things will never be as they were. That is scary

magpie    Posted 08-02-2003 at 12:04:34       [Reply]  [No Email]
Yep agree with you 100% I worked for a rancher once who was always taking his son out of school to work. That boy helped with everything, branding, sorting and shipping, feeding, fencing,everything. His dad always said he didn't want the boy's schooling to interfere with his education. I still know the boy well, and he has turned out just fine. He dosen't own his own ranch but he has an excellent job managing a large ranch in Alberta. Not everyone has this kind of opportunity, and I suppose some dropouts do end up as skidrow bums. But by the same token there are probably some university graduates that are skidrow bums too. It is ablosutely stupud to force a kid into something he or she in not interested in. Not everyone wants to be an engineer, some actually want to be trash collectors.

~Lenore    Posted 08-02-2003 at 12:41:41       [Reply]  [No Email]
Trash collector, huh.
Well they better have a BA degree! :-)

BW    Posted 08-02-2003 at 11:16:44       [Reply]  [No Email]
College not needed by everyone ?
Jobs requiring a college degree...
That B's and C's student is lucky if they get to see a H.S. pre-college coarse these days , it's only by going to college do they get a chance at what was once common H.S. coarses..It is MHO , that most H.S. coarses have been dumbied down so they all pass ..just look at the average H.S. Graduate , these days and those that Graduated , in the 50's and 60's ....those that graduated , in them days could and would run circles around most of what is a product of public ED,,,,, Quantity over Quality

Bill    Posted 08-02-2003 at 10:25:35       [Reply]  [Send Email]
I agree a college isn't necessary for everyone, but the powers to be running business don't seem to share the same opinion. Worked in the computer field for over thirty years, even taught on the job skills to college graduates. Found myslef out of a job and because of no college I'm not qualified to do what I've done for over thirty years. Even saw an ad in the local paper looking for a sanitation worker (read trash pickup), minimum education reqiurement: bachelor degree. I'm currently working part time in law enforcement, corrections officer. Seems like with the economy the way it is, no one wants to hire full time, nor pay for any benefits, but that's another topic.

PS I live in the country and refuse to move back to the city, just not worth it job or no job!

max    Posted 08-02-2003 at 17:18:41       [Reply]  [No Email]
You must have meant sanitation engineer, its a guy that drives a stinky train.

Cindi    Posted 08-02-2003 at 10:37:09       [Reply]  [No Email]
Where in the heck do you live that you need a college education to be a trash man? I hnever heard of such a thing!

~Lenore    Posted 08-02-2003 at 07:25:24       [Reply]  [No Email]

I remember when I was growing up only a few kids went to college!
Most went to work right out of high school. Most did pretty well too.
They got married and had kids and saved money to send their kids to college.
I wonder why everyone thinks all kids need a college education?
Sort of like my pal Clod says, "If everyone has a degree in a frame hanging on an office wall; who is going to be doing the work"?

Sven    Posted 08-02-2003 at 07:16:07       [Reply]  [No Email]
Apparently you do live in the real world.
I appreciate you comments, and agree.

Les...Success!!    Posted 08-02-2003 at 07:13:45       [Reply]  [No Email]
Good job, Cindi!
Now, if all those Americans whose ancestors did NOT come from another continent would please stand up.
I'm waiting.
Where are you?
You mean there aren't any?

Cindi    Posted 08-02-2003 at 07:29:06       [Reply]  [No Email]
I hope you understand that my point here is not about immigration, but about the decline of american (natives) ability to recognize and appreciate the fact that all our kids do not need to be educated to the nth degree.

Fred started roofing at sixteen. His daddy was picking potatos at fourteen and so was his mother. His father drove a truck all his life and made a very comfortable living. I am sick and tired of being made to feel that I am a failure as a parent because I don't have a college plan for my kids. I figure if they have dream and goals, they need to put their nose to the grindstone and keep those grades at a's. To me that is a sign that continuing education is a worthy investment.

Old Sarge    Posted 08-02-2003 at 07:36:15       [Reply]  [Send Email]
I agree with you Cindi. I started College at age 50+, At the commencement, my wife unbeknownst to me had brought the kids and grandkids (all 16 of em at the time), when they called me forwaerd to get my sheepskin they all stood up and yelled "Way to go Grandpa". The dean asked me about it before I left the stage. He thought it was really neat that I had done it after I had raised my family.

Cindiq    Posted 08-02-2003 at 07:42:00       [Reply]  [No Email]
If there is a practical application for continued education I'm all for it. But to just send a kid to college because it's the socially acceptable thing to do is ludicrous. Like for you, there are opportunities down the road to get a degree if one is wanted badly enough. I agree with your dean, and congratulaitons on your graduation!

Salmoneye    Posted 08-02-2003 at 07:51:29       [Reply]  [No Email]
I flunked out of two of the finest institutions of higher learning in the state before I was 20...

Never regretted it yet...

Ron,Ar    Posted 08-02-2003 at 09:00:20       [Reply]  [No Email]
My employer gives an extra thousand dollars to yearly salary if you have a BA or better. This is a new policy started this year. At the high cost of college and my age/yrs left to work, it is not worth the effort and expense, money-wise.

Linda    Posted 08-02-2003 at 13:12:46       [Reply]  [No Email]
Same here, Ron. My employer pays a pittance more if you have BSN after your name. I keep the RN and do the same job, but I don't have BSN on my nametag. It definitely would not pay me to go back to college just to have that title on my badge.

I went to college at the age of 41 and crammed 4 years of learning into 2 years. I graduated at the top of my class and am doing the work I love to do. I take care of the sickest patients in the hospital, and I take the same continuing education classes as those with BSN after their name.

I don't mean to badmouth those who have continued on with college. I would have, too, if I had more years until retirement, but it wouldn't benefit me now. Besides, I'm sticking right here in the country. I could attend college here, but would have to commute nearly 200 miles each way for my clinicals. No way. I already commute that far to my job in the city a few times a month. I think I'll just work for a few more years until I have our new house built. :-)

Cindi    Posted 08-02-2003 at 09:39:09       [Reply]  [No Email]
I don't know what the average BA costs to get. How many years at a thousand dollars a year would it take to get their money back?

Sue him...    Posted 08-02-2003 at 09:12:59       [Reply]  [No Email]
Your employer is engaging in an illegal discriminatory practice...

Either you all get the increase on 'merit', or no one gets it...That practice is equivalent to paying someone more because they were born 'after' a certain date...Illegal...

All this IMHO of course...

Salmoneye, Who Has Way Too Much Time On His Hands And Should Stop Reading Law Books As No One Will Let Him 'Clerk' For Them And Hence Will Never Be Allowed To Take The Bar Exam

Ron,Ar    Posted 08-02-2003 at 09:58:16       [Reply]  [No Email]
My employer is our local school district. I am the transportation shop foreman. Employees are divided into two groups. Certified-those with teaching certificates and classified-all others. Certified salaries have always been based on years plus education. This is the first time classified has been given this "benefit". It is primarily aimed at teacher aides and tutors who fall in the classified group but was extended to all. I strongly suspect that at the first sign of legalities this policy would simply be dropped for our group. No school in this state ever gives merit raises. State dept. of labor claims that public schools fall in a completly separate category, found that out battling overtime laws.

Dang...    Posted 08-02-2003 at 10:02:59       [Reply]  [No Email]
It may well be 'legal' then...'Civil Service' has its' own set of rules as opposed to 'private sector' employers...


Sure doesn't sound 'fair' to me, though...


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