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AI and other types on non natral breeding
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STEVEN H    Posted 08-15-2003 at 10:35:09       [Reply]  [No Email]
RET brought up a subject abought why would any one keep a bull. i am aginst AI line breeding cross breeding (not the cross where you breed two differnent breeds, but where you breed a trait in a family) embryo transfer and that whole ugly ball of wax. so what i want to know is why do it? i know that i would not want to be replaced by a anything that has the work french in it! AKA french straw gun.

Hal/WA    Posted 08-15-2003 at 16:49:39       [Reply]  [No Email]
I grew up on a cow and calf operation ranch and we had a little dairy herd that never exceeded 5 lactating cows. We usually had a grade Hereford bull. My Dad would go to the stockyards every couple of years and bring home the best looking Hereford feeder sized bull he could afford. Then that young bull would replace the previous full grown bull when he was big enough to do his job, so that the larger bull would not be breeding his daughters. We built up a very nice looking herd over the years this way, and often were able to do quite well selling the adult bull as a proven breeder because we could show his calves.

But for the Holstein milk cows and even some of the tamest beef cows, we sometimes used AI. Our operation was too small to consider having a Holstein bull, and besides that, many dairy breed bulls can be a real handful and may even be deadly dangerous. Using AI when we wanted a full Holstein replacement heifer was the best way to accomplish this. If you have ever tried to milk a Holstein/Hereford cross, you would understand why we wanted our milk cows to be all Holstein.

On the few beef cows that we used AI on, we did this because we then had access to extremely good sires--bulls that were worth so much that our little operation would never have had any chance to get the services of that quality of bull without the technique of AI. Using AI one bull could sire many thousands of calves over many more years than his lifetime instead of at most a couple of thousand over his useful life doing the process conventionally.

AI was practical for our dairy animals and those few beef cows that had a lot of handling and were very tame and easy to handle. But AI is not always successful, for one reason or another--be it timing or technique. We found it was also practical to have a bull for our beef herd and also for dairy cows that would not settle with AI or when we did not need replacement dairy heifers. The bull was almost always successful when he bred any of the cows. Sometimes if the bull was young and had short legs and the dairy cow was tall, it required a little bit of help. More than once, I have stood with a cow in the creek in position for the bull to do his business with that cow by standing on the bank. It worked. By the way, all of the Hereford bulls we had were relatively gentle and easy to manage (or we would not have kept them). But ANY BULL is an animal to be respected and to be very cautious of......

I have read some about embryo transfers and other exotic techniques. They are interesting, but I am sure that they are very expensive and I doubt that their use would ever be very widespread. Maybe in the super high dollar registered animals and in research, but not in very many run-of-the-mill animals. But AI is different--not very expensive at all and probably much more economical use of the top, expensive quality sires.

It is true that AI is a relatively new technique, but farmers have been selectively breeding animals for thousands of years and probably long before recorded history began. That is how we now have breeds as different as Angus, Herefords, Jerseys and Holsteins that are all the same species, but are really different in the presentation. We manipulate the breeding by mating animals that have characteristics we want and keeping the offspring that continue or improve those characteristics. It is the same with dogs--the chihuahua and the Saint Bernard are the same species (and I have seen such a "successful, but unintended" cross!!! Strange looking critters), but hardly look like the same kind of animal.

So if you don't want to use the AI service, don't. If you have a bull, be careful,it can really hurt or kill you. But please don't tell someone else that they can not use technology if they want to. Live and let live.....

Ron/PA    Posted 08-15-2003 at 11:08:54       [Reply]  [No Email]
AHHH, STEVEN, I think it's time that you get a bit more education on the subject, leave God out of it, and quit listening to the old timers,, PLEASE before you try to earn a living at it,, LEARN IT!

STEVEN H    Posted 08-15-2003 at 12:41:47       [Reply]  [No Email]
oh yea, and i should have not brought up god, most here are not capable of haveing a conversaion abought that matter without flying off the handle. but it dont matter because i believe in what i believe. i have also studied ag for all four years of highschool and do happpen to be more informed than them old timers and can draw my own lines from what i see. when you look at organic vs non you see the real difference. you can grow a betterr crop from organic than you can from non, but you have to work harder and longer to do so. the return is greater though. with beef cattle that i raise we raely ever need a single med here. but them dairy animals here, man you get a sick one and you have a bought $100 in meds and that animal might not live. i think that i need to stop it is geting long winded here. oh yea and dont takethis personally either i am just challenging your views not you.

Ron/PA    Posted 08-15-2003 at 20:23:37       [Reply]  [No Email]
Steven, that was not a religeous statement, I really am not concerned with your beliefs.
I am sure that your 4 years of ag in high school will put you head and shoulders above the "OLD TIMERS" that have been able to survive, some of them with little more than a 4 year college degree.
Your real education will begin when you learn that those "OLD TIMERS" already know all of what you hope to learn, however what they have one thing that you don't,,, an open mind! The idea that your way is the only way suggests to me that you don't make your living from your farm.
There are two sides to every lesson, learn to look at both of them, and the reason for each and you will become much wiser much sooner.

Suzie Q    Posted 08-15-2003 at 13:14:26       [Reply]  [No Email]
It is okay for each of us to have our personal
faiths... I dont think anyone would condem any
for that.

Personally I do prefere Organic over Genetically
Engineered as the jury is still out as to the effects that will be had with this process in the vegetable or animal areas of Science.

Are you in the 10 - 30 range and how long have you been farming? Just curious...

STEVEN H    Posted 08-15-2003 at 13:28:25       [Reply]  [No Email]
um no i my self have not been farming anywhere near the 10 to 30 year range. i have run what i have here for 2 years and havedone work on the nieghbors organic farm. they are the ones that taught bme on the organics. they have taught me very well on how to have a near weed free feild with no chems or cult, just the proper mineras. the same with the beef, they have run organic herfords since almost the start. now they will medicat if that animal will die, but most times they either ship it or let it get betteron its own with a carefull eye over it. to make my point on how the holstiens have become the freaks of the cow kindom i will give you this exaple. that year for meds dad and i spent over $10,000 in meds for dariy animals, mostly hostien. last year on beef cattle i had a herford heifer that would bloat up aobught every three days. the toatal vet bill for all beef breed animals, under $100. granter we had alot more dairy than beef, but the persentages still dont even come close. abought one out of every ten here was beef that year.

STEVEN H    Posted 08-15-2003 at 12:16:57       [Reply]  [No Email]
by all means teach me the thrueth than.
i have learned it well and dont go trying to feed me falseness now. ebryo transfer, we inject the cow with a hormon to get her to go into super ovlation, she produces use many eggs which are taken out and than surgecly transplanted into a new cow that does not have the traits that we want. she is than bread threw ai agin for selceted traits. she will have any where from 1 to three cavles. any more than three have been killed off. my descripoin of line breeding and imbreeding is very right on the head. ai its self should be good. i mean after all the semen is in batrai free sultion. it has been checked for usefullness and livlness. costs are low per cow, rangine from a few bucks to a couple hunder. there is no big bad rough bull to beat up on the cow. you will not see me use it. like i said we are breeding super freek cows. and the results show. how long is the average cows lie for a milker? 3 years. use to be 4 to 6. your turn ron, not to pick on you here but you suport it so presnt an agrument with the facts. and we will go from there.

instead of work it should    Posted 08-15-2003 at 10:36:39       [Reply]  [No Email]
be word opps

paynts    Posted 08-15-2003 at 13:58:05       [Reply]  [No Email]
Steven-how the sperm meets the egg is not the important thing.
No matter if the bull live covers the cows or if the cows are inseminated-it matters not one bit.
You still have to pay attention to NOT getting into problems with the inbreeding,etc. You are attributing a LOT of problems to AI that are not the fault of AI-it is just the medium of fertilization. It is still the guy holding the pipette that has to do his homework to see if the resulting offspring will be a good cross.
Good grief-try not to be too arrogant about knowing more than the "old timers". Arrogance can have a very humbling effect.
You are messing up so many things under the blanket of artificial insemination. The issues you seem to be objecting to are also losing vigor from NOT outcrossing to unrelated lines-embryo transfers-short cycling stock to bring on ovulation..and on and on.
We utilize AI and have been very happy with the results. We have gotten foals we could never have done by having to ship the mares and pay the fees for care and so on.
I really am confused as to what you are most upset about..can you flesh that out a bit?

STEVEN H    Posted 08-15-2003 at 15:06:58       [Reply]  [No Email]
i was just told to stop listening to you old timers because you did not know what you were talking aobught on AI. so which is it? LOL
AI is nothing more than looking in a book at some studs?bulls stats and picking the one that you think will better your herd. so now by takeing the animals out that have the lesser wanted genes we are geting rid of a great variety of the gene pool. no one wants to stick in genes from a bull that is so so or good, no they want the top of the line. why settle for less when you can get more right. and i have given problems that are related directly with AI. when youy toy with mother nature she plays hard ball with you.

Bill in TN    Posted 08-15-2003 at 14:59:18       [Reply]  [No Email]
Having bread Beagles for 20+ years, I can tell you there are pro's and cons to inbreeding, linebreeding or outcrossing, and I've done all 3. Inbreeding and linebreeding can intensify desirable qualities. The key is to have the gene's the way you want them before you make an inbread cross. I.e you have to know both desirable traits as well as the undesirable traits in your particular bloodline and what you want or need to help your bloodline. There are many books written on this subject.

I usually always line breed as this is the most consistant way to get what I want. I consider line breeding to be a cousin to cousin. I do think an outcross is necessary every third or fourth generation, but you have to know the strengths and weakness of the line your outcrossing with.

My advise to anyone who breeds is:

1st, know what you want.

2nd, start with proven stock and be willing to pay the price to get good stock.

3rd, Cull ruthlessly. Do not pass inferior stock to anyone period. If you don't want it, they don't either. The whole idea is to improve the breed and selling culls does nothing to help it.

4th, Do not breed your stock to inferior stock. I've had situations where people would breed what I considered to be a cull to my stock and then complained when it didn't produce good stock. In my experience, the bitchline matters more than the studline, probably 75% female and 25% male.

5th, Get to know breeders in your area and ask questions.

It doesn't matter how the sperm get to the egg, as much as it does getting quality sperm to quality eggs.

ret    Posted 08-15-2003 at 15:44:28       [Reply]  [No Email]
of course you know that try as we do, the perfect animal just doesn't come along. We were into showing N. Elkhounds for some years and are well acquainted with some of the major breeders in the country, one of which lives in your state.
You just don't know what you are going to get, By the way, I just love those 13" to 15" beagles

paynts    Posted 08-15-2003 at 15:30:29       [Reply]  [No Email]
Incredibly well said Bill.
I only mentioned paying attention to linebreeding as Mr Steve was having so many problems with his stock.
I am not an old timer in the breeding shed-but for almost 30 years I have bred sparingly but with a lot of thought. "Hot" ticket bulls/stallions do not show the entire criteria I look for in a breeding animal. I have been relatively successful though.
I do not choose to keep a breeding male-lots of reasons,but then again-I do not think I need to. I have a vast selection of quality animals to breed my stock to. I am not limited to just my own.
In competant hands-AI has-in my opinion...only done well by the industry.

STEVEN H    Posted 08-15-2003 at 15:24:26       [Reply]  [No Email]
and how many deformations do you get? how many calves that dont turn out just the way you want how many abortions you get? honesty here now please. hard cold facts, do to beading practises we have breed most dieseae resistence out of the holstien. we have breed in poor bone structure. shortend life spans greater health woes. and over all breed out most hardyness.

Corey    Posted 08-15-2003 at 17:21:28       [Reply]  [No Email]
Just out of curiosity are you guys realy serious in this conversation or just pulling each others chain? Get real, how are you going to actualy run into the problems that have been brought up here with AI? There are thousands of choices out there as far as top grade bulls to choose from for AI. Not to mention the fact that the chances of isolating genes in your particular herd is about as numericaly possible as marrying your cousin by accident, considering the unlikelyness of your cow being in the same line as the donor bull, in fact it would be much more likely to have the problems mentioned by not using AI. Who knows, the bull you buy at the local sale barn to replace yours might be a cousin LOL!

paynts    Posted 08-15-2003 at 15:38:35       [Reply]  [No Email]
And you are attributing this to AI?
Sorry-do not breed cattle-but do utilize AI. Stuff happens-to blame it on the AI process seems stretching it at the very least. As far as problems-I had a huge foal this spring that had to be pulled and 6 years ago had a colt born that snapped off the umbilical and almost bled out. Not conception problems though-believe that is what you are asking.
If that is true then I guess naturally bred cows do not suffer these problems? That was a rhetorical question-because they do.
I do agree if you breed for one trait only[milk production-or muscle mass-speed-whatever]you can get in a bind quick. BUT that is due to short sighted breeding programs. A little common sense and researching pedigrees can help.

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