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Still struggling with religion
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Cindi    Posted 09-25-2003 at 05:03:34       [Reply]  [No Email]
The argument the other day was about common sense and higher learning. It got me started thinking and helped me put into words some of my thoughts and fears. I am not trying to start any arguments, I need some answers.

To the question of 'common sense' and why some people don't seem to have any. Maybe common sense or 'instinct' is just simply something that you already know because you have been here before.

I believe (for the moment) that our 'souls' are energy. Our life force. I sometimes wonder if the bible is a superstitious tool used to make people behave. One of the primary things that concerns me about religion is this.

Why are some people more successful than others? Why are some people considered geniuses and others are slow. If there is such a thing as reincarnation (I think it's the buddhists that believe in this or the chinese, whatever) then the theory makes perfect sense.

If the theory of reincarnation is true, we come back over and over again and inhabit different bodies. We may be a retarded person the first time, and we take what we learn from that and when we come back the next time we may have come up a step in the evolutionary ladder. This may be what causes us to have compassion and empathy for these people. We have been there.

I know it sounds farfetched, but there is no other explanantion for why some people are on different planes intellectually. They were just born superior? I don't think so. I think (for the moment) that we are recycled over and over again. We take what we learn from our last life and apply it to our next life, to some degree, which allows us to go on and learn new things.

Why do some kids do well in math and fail miserably in reading? Why do some kids go through school, and everything is easy for them and they make straight A's the whole way through and end up a rhodes scholar? Why are some kids members of mensa while they are still in high school? Why can some kids hear a song on the radio and come home and play it back note for note on the piano? Some would say this is divine influence, but rarely if ever is this talent attributed to God. It's referrred to as natural talent. Why then does God not take it away?

If you look at it this way, we have to work our way up through many different lives to reach a level of complete understanding of what it is to be human, and then maybe possibly go on to another plane and maybe even an alternate existence.

There are millions of planets out there. It is said that God created everything. If so, then why did he create only one planet of 'people'. What's on all those other planets? Nothing? Why? They go on forever! There are so many different planets and solar systems it boggles the mind. What if one day we find out that there are not only different inhabited planets but different species of life as well. As technology improves it brings us closer and closer to anwering some of these questions. Maybe the solar system is so complex and inhospitable that it won't be proven for three or six or eight more generations, if ever. In our current bodies, or as the people we are now, we may never know.

What would that do to the belief in God? Can you imagine what would happen if it was ever proven without a doubt that God does not and has not existed? All it would take to do this would be the discovery of life on another planet and the existence of so-called aliens. If we were made in the image of God, then who are these others made in the image of?

I firmly beleive that every year we inhabit the earth we come closer and closer to discovering life on other planets. I think some people have already proven it. I think perhaps there are folks at NASA who know it, and they also know what would happen to our belief system if we knew it. If there is no God or heaven, then there is no reason to be nice to each other. If there's no reward or punishment, what's the point? Take what you want. The strongest would survive.

Why would God create a solar system slam full of other planets and leave them barren? So we could have stars? What for? We only needed the north star for his purposes.

What if heaven is another planet, and the only people who get to go there are the ones who have come back here over and over again and have finally learned how to make the transisition to the next plane of existence?

To believe in God is to believe that every single one of us is here simply to multiply and be good. Can that really be what our purpose is? That's so incredibly boring! That we are nothing but pawns in a game between God and Satan? It depresses me to think that that is the only reason behind our existence.

There have been 'people' on this planet for how many years? People that died here back before time was even taken down or kept record of. They are still waiting for judgement day?

Every ten years or so we hear about the end of the world. It has supposed to be coming for who knows how long. Way back before we had plywood and spray paint to make those signs we see all up and down the highway. (smile)

So, help me out here. I am open to any and all suggestions. Anything other than just blind faith. I am not trying to be sacreligious I honestly need some answers. If nobody wants to contribute to this for fear that it may spark a controversial argument then don't. It's up to you. I think as long as we stay civil to each other we should be able to discuss anything.

Fawteen - oooooo    Posted 09-25-2003 at 15:39:18       [Reply]  [No Email]
Volatile topic, and people seem to be keeping a civil tongue about it. Imagine my surprise!

Anyway, my thoughts in a nutshell:

My best hope is that our 'consciousness' continues after we leave this world, perhaps in some sort of 'mass mind' form.

My strongest suspicion is that death is like being unconscious. Absolutely nothing. No input. No sense of time passing. Nothing. Somebody turns the lights out, and that's the end of it.

My worst fear is that the Bible is absolutely, literally, word-for-word correct in every detail. In which case, I'm totally screwed...

Are you sure...    Posted 09-25-2003 at 17:18:57       [Reply]  [No Email]
That you aint from Vermont?

If you tell me you like Bourbon, I am really going to get scared here...


PS...The 'mass mind' thing has already been done...Svetavatara Upanishad...The Brahman Wheel...

'My Name Is MahaSamAtmahn...But You Can Call Me Sam'...Roger Zelazny; 'The Lord Of Light'

Fawteen    Posted 09-25-2003 at 17:23:57       [Reply]  [No Email]
Useta get outside my share (and then some) of Jim Beam.

Spider Robinson is the one that gave me the idear. Ever read him?

Nope...    Posted 09-25-2003 at 17:28:32       [Reply]  [No Email]
But I now have a PostIt on the edge of my screen for the morrows Google'izing...


Fawteen - Be Forewarned..    Posted 09-25-2003 at 17:31:35       [Reply]  [No Email]
My Man Spider has a serious weakness for puns...

LMAO!!!!!    Posted 09-25-2003 at 15:44:35       [Reply]  [No Email]
You ain't the only one. Sometimes it's easier to belive that which suits us best ;)

I'm not a bad person, I'm worse to myself than anyone else in the whole wide world, but I'm no saint neeether.


BOSS    Posted 09-25-2003 at 15:37:23       [Reply]  [No Email]
You are thinking too much. WAY too much. Life is simple, you are born, you procreate, you die....

But do you notice that I didn't say anything about how much fun you are allowed to have before you die ?

enjoy yourself, see all the pretty things, taste all the good foods, listen to all the good sounds, love everybody...well almost everybody.

When people start to ask the questions that you are asking, I tell them...

Don't ask why the flower is so pretty.
Don't study it, research it, disect it, because before you have your answers, it will die.
Just enjoy the flower and all its beauty.

Cindi    Posted 09-25-2003 at 15:46:09       [Reply]  [No Email]
Well that is no doubt one of the best 'living' startegies I HAVE EVER HEARD.

phyllis    Posted 09-25-2003 at 14:22:30       [Reply]  [No Email]
Whoa, what a topic! I could say a lot, but will keep it short. I don't think we were put here to just reproduce and live in a paradise. I believe God created us to fellowship with Him. And, He created us in His image. God is a Spirit, and we are able to fellowship and worship Him in Spirit, even though we can't see Him like we can see each other. When Adam and Eve were created, God put them in a paradise (Eden), but Adam and Eve also had free will. That's where things changed, when they used their God-given free will to listen to Satan's lies. I don't think God wanted robots when he created us. He wants fellowship with us, but not forcibly. It's our choice.
Life on other planets? I don't know. But like someone else said here, if there is, it doesn't affect our personal relationship with God any at all. Who created God? Nobody. He always was, and always will be. Religion? Not always a good thing. Man can mess anything up, lol. The Pharisees had religion, big-time, but they lacked love, and couldn't see their Messiah when he was in front of their face - but they were really religious.
OK, that's enough from me.

C Kulig    Posted 09-25-2003 at 09:45:07       [Reply]  [No Email]
I gotta go take a couple of Advil!
I'm not overly religous myself.
It's kinda creepy, I couldn't agree more.
or is it, I could agree more.
Dangit, where's that Advil?!?!?!?!

and....    Posted 09-25-2003 at 09:48:27       [Reply]  [No Email]
I like simple words.
I had to look up proselytized.

LOL    Posted 09-25-2003 at 09:53:37       [Reply]  [No Email]
Sorry about that...

Salmoneye, With Lexicon In Hand

C Kulig    Posted 09-25-2003 at 14:59:54       [Reply]  [No Email]

You're killing me here!    Posted 09-25-2003 at 16:41:13       [Reply]  [No Email]
You think I have all this stuff in my head???


I just know how to look stuff up...

Salmoneye, Who Is Out Of 10Ę Words For Now


deadcarp    Posted 09-25-2003 at 09:08:45       [Reply]  [No Email]
my answer is not an answer but a comment - i'm glad firstoff to see that you're thinking this thru rather than just relying on the wisdom of what some old hen blieved when you were 7 years old. no really - plenty of people do that! and then discard everything else they learned from the same obsolete generation. (go figger)
i can't see reincarnation because the numbers don't add up: for example, if some adam and eve started all this, which 2 modern people inherited their experience? and what are the rest of us - chopped liver wannabees?
god doesn't add up either, but only from a complete lack of evidence in my lifetime. either that or i've read it all wrong.
there probably is other life out there, and if so i'd love to interview them about their thoughts and beliefs on their origins :)
having said this, i still believe in a creator if some kind: maybe it's a ball of light or explosion or a cosmic coincidence ("terrible beauty"?) - whatever it is, it is an absolute master at organizing things. i can show you enough natural balances under an overturned stump to convince anybody that life is way more than coincidence. is it eternal? i doubt that anything's eternal, but how long does that dead stump influence the forest? does it look after us? much as we hope, i don't think so on any daily basis. not nearly. does it resemble us? oh cmon - maybe on some moleculear level but no more than a rotten stump. :)
so why do i profess to be religious? the odds man - the odds. i have no idea what this creator's name is but that doesn't mean i shouldn't sorta bank my stove against a cold eternity. :)

Fawteen - The odds    Posted 09-25-2003 at 15:46:10       [Reply]  [No Email]
That's why I went to church for a long time. Not because it did anything for me, or because I could point to any event or circumstance in my life that led me to believe that God had in any way influence my life, but because I was brought up by Christian parents, and I was too scared to buck "the odds".

Then, it struck me that if that was the ONLY reason I was in church, God was probably not too impressed with my motivation, and I was wasting both my time and His.

It's been said that an Agnostic is an Atheist without the balls to say so. That describes me to a T.

I have heard worse...    Posted 09-25-2003 at 16:36:50       [Reply]  [No Email]
Descriptions for people that 'refuse' to believe...

One of the reasons after literally years of searching and 'wanting' to believe, that I couldn't in good conscience Evangelize...

I would be a p1$$-poor example to send forth...

Vic    Posted 09-25-2003 at 08:52:01       [Reply]  [No Email]
Ron I think the remaining apes were not paying attention in class and did not learn to evolve. I sure wish God had of made me rich instead of so good looking.

If, and I say if....    Posted 09-25-2003 at 10:00:56       [Reply]  [No Email]
there is anything to the thoery of evolution, that seems faisly simple to me. They are in early stages of evolution. Maybe when an ape dies, his energy goes next into a huuman form. Like I said, it's a theory, but if we humans are in different stages of growth on the evolutionary scale how hard is it to believe that animals are not?


Tom A    Posted 09-25-2003 at 08:30:54       [Reply]  [No Email]
I'd like to throw in my two cents, if I could.

First off, I think the theory about reincarnation and that we each "do better" each time we come back smacks of the belief that one person is better than another, and I don't believe that.

I believe God has made us all--even all those other races and creatures on all those other distant planets that we just haven't discovered yet. God made us all.

God gave each of us different gifts--strengths and weaknesses. We all have some of both, which may explain why we say some PhDs have no common sense, just an indication of different gifts.

God also gives us free choice to do with our lives and our gifts as we see fit. God hopes we "do the right thing" and try to make the world better, but doesn't force us to do is all up to each of us. In the Christian bible it warns, though, that those of us who have been given lots of gifts will be held to a higher standard when the time comes for accounting for our acts.

Faith in God is a gift. Like love, it is unsought and cannot be explained to somebody who hasn't experienced it. But somebody without faith isn't a bad person, he can be doing better work than some so-called religious people.

I believe there are many different religions because there are so many different people and none of us can truly understand God, who is simply too big to be understandable by us poor mortals. So religions are around to give us a hand toward understand God and what He wants. God is a Christian and a Muslim and a Buddhist and all those others, too. I don't think you have to belong to or believe in any religion to be a good person. But the test of a religion is "does it help make people do good things?" Probably important because there are so many false religions out there too. But the core of most religions is similar, and generally based on doing things to make life better for everyone and everything. I for one, am a Catholic because to me it helps me make the most sense of the world...but I have a good Muslim friend in Saudi Arabia and we have a lot of common ground in our beliefs.

anyway, didn't mean to be preachy but felt the need to spout off.

enjoy the world, and keep struggling!

No, not one better....    Posted 09-25-2003 at 09:52:17       [Reply]  [No Email]
.....than the other. Each individual making their own progress based on the order in which they first inhabited the earth. Not a competition, just a natural progresion. Just like school.


Ron,Ar-another comment    Posted 09-25-2003 at 08:15:55       [Reply]  [No Email]
People believe what they want, usually because they were taught it from parents. A few really lucky ones find it from within or through Divine guidance so to speak. I have never changed anyones core belief in religous matters. I think we are far better off working on our own selves, becoming better neighbors, better Christians, better parents. It never ceases to amaze me that one denomination or religion wants to assert their beliefs as the "Right One" over someone elses. Again I say that because you DO struggle with religion it is a good thing. I pray you will find your "place" in all this, but only you can do that.
BTW if we evolved from apes why are there still apes? Why didn't they evolve too?

Vic in Kenefick    Posted 09-25-2003 at 08:13:10       [Reply]  [No Email]
In my first life I was a Buffalo. Someone shot me. In my second life I was a Cock Roach. Someone smashed me with a shoe. Now in this life I am a Bricklayer. I am starting to get tired of this reincornation stuff and am thinking strongly about going to the Bible for help because the way it's been going I fear may find myself a Democrat in my next life and I see it seems to be open season on them.

deadcarp    Posted 09-25-2003 at 09:13:50       [Reply]  [No Email]
Poor vic, we knew him well and loved him like a brother -- whomp! yep, you said it in a nutshell :)

Butch    Posted 09-25-2003 at 07:01:52       [Reply]  [No Email]
Cindi, I struggled for years as you are now but my belief is of a supreme creator, nothing else makes any sense to me. Scientists and scientist wannabes make a good case with their research and so-called research of big bangs and evolution. They have built a huge house upon their theories but the trouble is their house has no foundation and therefore it canít stand. When in conversation with those that believe those theories or promote them keep taking them back to the beginning, not the handy place for them to start, but the beginning. Donít let the evolutionists and big bangers give you a starting point and quickly go on to the juicer and more believable parts of their theories. The evolutionists like to start with monkeys and evolve them into man, fine and dandy but ask the evolutionists where it all started and when you pin them down clear back to the beginning they will try to convince you that a couple inert grains of sand amongst the zillions of such suddenly mated (my word) and became a simple creature from which we all evolved. Yea right! I may not be very intelligent but I am not about to believe that something inert became alive just because they say it did. I wonder how many of them have jars of sand in their labs waiting for something to happen? I have had one in my kitchen for years, so far nothing but when it does Iím trashing my religion, lol. If nothing else ask them at least where did the sand come from? If they are true to form thatís when you will get the big bang. Ask the big bangerís how their theory works, I donít know much about the big bang because itís so unbelievable right from the surface. It goes something like this, some things collided at high speed and KA-BOOM the universe and time was created. What a minute though, where did those ďthingsĒ that collided come from? How did they get up to speed? These types of questions can go on and on and they can answer none of them. The only book I have ever read that has an explanation that not only makes sense but is believable back to itís beginning or foundation is the Bible. Itís very hard to put my beliefs in simple terms and few words but they go something like this; The Old Testament says God created the earth in a day and created everything on it in 5 more days. Those prophets who wrote the Old Testament also told of a savior of man that was yet to come, a Christ child. That Christ walked the earth is not theory or story, it is factual. That Christ was God in the flesh was proven by both his sinless life and the miracles of healing he performed AND because it was prophesized. Al these things must be considered together to make sense and be believable, together they are the foundation my faith, Christianity. My prayer will be with you Cindi.

Salmoneye    Posted 09-25-2003 at 07:12:31       [Reply]  [No Email]
Who created God then?...


Butch    Posted 09-25-2003 at 12:27:25       [Reply]  [No Email]
Salmoneye I am not much good at debate and people that are can get me in a corner in a hurry but the champion of debate is only that, the debate champion. :-) I don't know where God came from or if he is soild matter, gas, or thought. I just know that of all the different theories and science that are presented as our history back to square one, only one has historical facts blending in with prophecy that makes sence to me, the Bible. Some prophecy, or faith has to be there, whether a person is defending God, or evolution. Nobody except God (if you so believe) knows what actualy happened at the beginning of time or if there was a beginning of time. My faith in him has been rewarded with answered prayer and other rich blessings, too much and too many to be chalked up to coincidence. Happy day to you.

ret    Posted 09-25-2003 at 13:21:57       [Reply]  [No Email]
easy to believe in God if life has been good to you. On the otherhand, if you are really poor, that is all you have.But if you have lost a child or loved one way too early,and your life is filled with illness and pain while others around you that seem to be no better than you are happy and well, that is when it is hard to believe. I sure hate to think that the sins of my fathers fall on me, or a child suffers because of WHAT? Too deep a subject for me

Butch    Posted 09-25-2003 at 19:24:53       [Reply]  [No Email]
"easy to beleive if life's been good" Very true words ret, many fall away when times get tough, thats a fact. But consider also that it is hard to believe when times are best as we all want to take credit for life's acomplishments as our own doing or luck, even those that believe. Satan provides all of us with lots of ammunition for disbelief. I wish I had an answer for those that seem to suffer needlessly. My mission here is to plant seeds, In the scriptures God says he will nurture what I plant. I wish he would nurture my typing and spelling :)

hay    Posted 09-25-2003 at 07:18:11       [Reply]  [No Email]
perhaps you should ask god that the ressurection. i sure you will be amazed at the answer.

Salmoneye    Posted 09-25-2003 at 07:31:46       [Reply]  [No Email]
I was going to stay out of this...But...

I don't believe...And it aint for lack of trying...

I believe that we are all here to be the best people that we can be now...I do not count on a 'resurection' to remove my sins or answer my questions...I try daily to be better than the day before, and try to make the lives of the people around me a little bit easier, happier, and richer with love...

I don't always succeed when I try...But that will not stop me from trying again...

If there is a God...Then he has bigger worries than whether I am thumping a book written by Man...Compiled by Man...Interpreted by Man...And proselytized by Man...

All IMHO of course...

I have been known to be wrong ;-)

WELL, Hehehehehe,,    Posted 09-25-2003 at 08:42:53       [Reply]  [No Email]
You and I could argue this point all day, but here's the one argument for my side that may make a believer out of you.
God gave me the strength to stay out of this one.

hay    Posted 09-25-2003 at 07:49:03       [Reply]  [No Email]
i firmly believe we are all important to god. why else would he bother to create us if we did not matter? however, i do respect your opinion and views and that's all i gonna say about it. have a nice day.

Salmoneye    Posted 09-25-2003 at 07:59:05       [Reply]  [No Email]
You have a nice day too!

See how fun this is when people are civil when discussing theology?

I do love the debate...

Tummer    Posted 09-25-2003 at 06:25:35       [Reply]  [Send Email]
It is hard for following generations to truly understand what it was really like for the previous generations. I remember this when the subject of the Bible comes up. The Bible was wrote for their level of understanding as well as ours, for this reason you must look between the lines. This is my opinion.
I have a problem with the term, belief. It seems to me that if you belief (lucky soul)and are sane you must have hard evidance. I am not so fortunate, so I must rely on faith. In my Bible Christ says at one point; "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." With a lot of other seeming contridictions to reason in the Bible I personally have chosen to believe(or have faith in) that this is just a translation problem and He really said "have faith" In short I do not believe that faith and belief are the same thing and that God only ask that we have faith and love.
Faith assures you that science will only serve to eliminate the superstition from religion, never dissprove God. Even if there are, "billions and billions" of civilizations out there.
We are about reasoning, so we have to use our brains, God would not attempt to confuse us by lying to us. He seems to have no greater order to us than to use our brain to advance. This will result in many shocks to us. But He will not be untruthful.

Cindi    Posted 09-25-2003 at 09:45:07       [Reply]  [No Email]
"He seems to have no greater order to us than to use our brain to advance."

To what end though, Tummer. See I had it backwards. I thought that the very desire of knowledge was what got us in trouble in the first place. Remember the apple.

Having read every single other response here thus far, I am not trying to pick at this one statement, but it underlines every single detail of what I'm trying to say.

Basically the bible wants us, or God wants us to populate the earth and be good people. Is that it? If so, why give us the capacity to reason and the creativity to invent. If our ability to constantly change and adapt and alter our environment was not intended, then why do we have it? We could get along just fine without paintings and symphonies, those things are not necessary to our survival. So how come some people have the talents to compose these things?

Basically the bible teaches us to worship God and put our faith in him and as close as I can tell, the original intent was to live in a garden of eden for all time. To walk about unclothed and unaware that there is anything wrong with this. So technically that would make us no better than animals. We just live off the land, breed, and smile a lot. (sorry) So were we intended to be animals?

It just seems like there are a lot of contradictions.

Regardless of when it started or why, we have evolved. Over the years our very bodies have changed to adapt to a less stressful and less difficult living environment. This is a proven fact. We grow less hair on our bodies than we used to, as we have adapted to colder climates with clothing, we are growing taller and physically larger (on average) than say people of the colonial era, because food is more readily available and a larger frame is easier to provide for. There are some subtle changes, but changes nonetheless. I could probably back this up with documentation if anyone is interested.

I just have a hard time beleiving that we were put on this earth for no other reason than to populate and 'be good'. Especially considering that back in the biblical days people lived for hundreds of years. I can't imagine that we were not intended to grow intellectually. I mean, geez, if you sit around day after day for hundreds of years eventually you're gonna get bored and say ....hey....why don't we try to make a wheel or sumthin'. (grin)

I think that we were intended to learn how to do all these things and grow until there is nothing left to learn and then go on to the next phase of existence. Whatever that may be. It has occured to me that if there is a heaven, you may have to live your life over and over until you achive the right by knowledge and understanding to enter it. Which may explain why there has been no 'end of the world.' Maybe it comes on an individual basis.

I don't think we have just one shot at this 'living' thing. There is way too much to learn, and too many die way too young to learn anything substantial. How would they get another chance at it? By coming back again. Otherwise they are just accepted as good and allowed into heaven, because they sure didn't have time to do anything wrong to get them sent the other direction.

Salmoneye    Posted 09-25-2003 at 10:02:32       [Reply]  [No Email]
Art and Talent are in us to glorify God...

Or that's the reasoning that was conveyed to me...

Cindi    Posted 09-25-2003 at 10:14:50       [Reply]  [No Email]
Okay, but if we were originally intended to live in a paradise, there is no use for such things. I mean, we were supposed to have the perfect climate, be able to reproduce with no pain, be able to pick up food off the ground, have no fear from predators, the lion lying down with the lamb and all that. I realize that the whole apple incident changed all that but when did OUR design change. I keep getting dragged back to the prehistoric days when man marked on the walls of his cave with rocks and created what has been termed as the first art?

I'm SO confused. (grin)

I love the debate too. I really am in it to learn.

VADAVE    Posted 09-25-2003 at 06:04:11       [Reply]  [Send Email]
OK I don't often say anything, just read but I got respond now. Beiong a PK (preacher's kid) I have been around religon and churchs awhile now. You cannot say you believe, either in God, religon or christainity, by what you see people doing or how they are. First creativity--where did we come from? A monkey-OK where they come from? Some previous lower life form--OK where they come from? so on until we get to a single cell--where did it come from? In the end we were created! Evolutionists will never get past the final WHERE DID THEY COME FROM?
You are worried about the purpose for being. I believe we were created to be companions for God and we were duped into doing worng and therefore now have a choice to eithere walk and talk to God or not. If we choose not then we are pawns.
Are there other intelligent beings in the universe?--maybe/probably. But it doesn't matter in your personnal relationship with God. Remmeber you were created by God to be his companion.
The abilities of the verious people we come across as more to do with genes and training then a big plan by God. Just as it is with raising pigs a litter will have smart ones and dumb ones. Some genes become more dominate depending on how you selectively breed. But all the genes are there. Don't you think it works the same with people? Training--how many times have we heard/seen individuals from the same family be brought up (trained) in different environments and turn out so different. That's why we emphasize bringing up our kids "right" so much.

Now let me throw some things I've been thinking about on you. Everyone and I mean everyone says God is good and kind and why would he let this or that happen. I have come to believe we do not serve such a God. Yes he/she can be good and kind and helpful BUT he also has a temper and can be violent. Two quick stories: Remember when Moses led the Isarelies out of Egypt and they came to the, now, Jorden river. The people were afraid because the land was populated with giants. God turned them back into the desert and NONE except Joshua and one or rwo others saw the promised land--they all died! When Joshua took Jericho the rules were that no body was to take anything from the city but were to walk straight ahead and kill everyone. One man took a bar of gold, cloth and some other trinkets. They lost the next battle and Joshua asked God what hapened and He told him. God's directed punishment was to find the man his wife, kids and their wivies and kids and stone them to death. The man committed the wrong but everyone paid. I firmly believe He is the same God today.

Butch    Posted 09-25-2003 at 07:03:34       [Reply]  [No Email]
My apologies, while I was writing up my answer above you posted yours.

VADAVE    Posted 09-25-2003 at 07:12:35       [Reply]  [Send Email]
We agree! As I read what you wrote I started to chuckle--we were saying the same thing.

hay    Posted 09-25-2003 at 05:40:43       [Reply]  [No Email]
i'm sure everyone has some struggles with faith. after all, faith is not a physical thing. it is absolute belief. i figger that if god wanted us to know all about everything he would have had it written down. just think of what humans would do if they knew of god's plan. we would surely try to change it and make money off it, dontcha think? i believe that when we leave here, we will surely find out the answers to all questions. read and study the bible.

Ron,Ar    Posted 09-25-2003 at 05:26:25       [Reply]  [No Email]
The fact that you are "still struggling with religion" is a good thing, sorta. People full of faith struggle every day. Simon Peter did,see the last few chapters of John. I encourage you to read the Bible. The Bible does not say there is no other life out there, it only tells us of life here. A person who has faith only in theirself has only theirself for strength.
I was tempted to just post "why ask why" but thought better of it.
Ron,Ar-who has been known to preach a little Gospel.

Who Wrote the Bible?    Posted 09-25-2003 at 05:16:27       [Reply]  [No Email]
Could evil men have written the Bible and attributed it to God? Evil men would not teach being honest and good. They would teach us to be self-serving. Evil people don't put others first.

Could it be that good men wrote the Bible and lied to us and said that God wrote it? That one leaves a big crack. Good men surely would not have lied about God.

I believe that God used good men to put down His word. He told them that they should not change any of it. "not a jot or a tittle". There is nothing wrong with faith; we should not have "blind faith". We are to test what we believe with what the Bible tells us. If the Bible says something other than what we believe, then, we need to change, not the Book.

Some will give better answers than mine, I am sure. I must go to work. Steve from Tn

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