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Country Discussion Topics
To add your comments to this topic, click on one of the 'Reply' links below.

What's this pooh about America deserving it?
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G Taylor    Posted 09-25-2001 at 07:37:16       [Reply]  [Send Email]
I missed most of the past couple of weeks events except for a few socialist comments from CBC radio. Being deep in the Northern bush looking for moose & pickerel limits communication.
"America deserved it"? What kind of crap is that comment? Another load of pure bull was " we have to educate everyone around the world with gov't programs so we can live in peace & harmony".
All you have to do is have a nice car,truck tractor,boat,house & some loser who doesn't even know you, who has nothing will try to deface it or ruin it. Many people would rather drag others down to their level or take away the fruits of hard work & wise planning rather than have someone else be superior to themselves.
The Islamic religion has nothing more to do with this than a tool for an evil person's power. Same was done with the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch Hunt or elimination of inferior people & reclaiming back the "Motherland" in WWII.
Where is all the help in return from all the countries around the world who the "West" is always assisting in their disasters


Erich    Posted 09-25-2001 at 16:49:29       [Reply]  [No Email]
No one deserved what happened on September 11th. However, that doesn't mean that we don't have any culpability.

American foreign policy has been a travesty over the past 50 years. We have installed and propped up dictators, despots and corrupt regimes all over the world. Unfortunately, this is not something that is mentioned all that much in this country.

Our presence in the Middle East has left in it's wake a huge number of people who are disenfranchised, starved, uprooted, without medical care, homes, hospitals, or hope. Most of the members of the Taliban are former Afghan rebels who learned their methods from and were financed and armed by the CIA. Bin Laden himself got set up in arms distribution during this period of Cold War Armament.

We have been blessed in this country with so much. It truly is a great nation and it's people have shown themselves to be of the highest character again and again, especially in times of chrisis such as now. Unfortunately, I'm afraid we have become complacent and not duly diligent of our government. It is a dangerous thing to give any human being or group supreme power and then leave them to their own devices. Our government has done things in the world in our names and with our money that I am certain would not come anywhere near the average American's sense of basic fairness and decency.

Given the above, and the fact that it appears that the desired response of the terrorists was to cause a massive millitary retaliation, in order to rally far greater numbers of the disenfranchised to their cause, I think that now is a better time to tend to healing, security, prevention and self education, rather than mindless militarism.

http://www.labournet.net/world/0109/chomsky1.html
http://www.nypress.com/14/38/taki/conformist.cfm
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BAC4815.321B%40perfectOMITmail.co
http://www.alternativeradio.org/


Also read the following which was sent to me through a friend:

Dear Friends,

Yesterday I heard a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage," and he asked, "What else
can we do? What is your suggestion?" Minutes later I heard a TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about these issues especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's been going on over there. So I want to share a few thoughts with anyone who will listen.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I fervently wish to see those monsters punished. But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant
psychotics who captured Afghanistan in 1997 and have been holding the country in bondage ever since. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a master plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would love for someone to eliminate the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country. I guarantee it. Some say, if that's the case, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban themselves? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, damaged, and incapacitated. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.

Millions of Afghans are widows of the approximately two million men killed during the war with the Soviets. And the Taliban has been executing these women for being omen and have buried some of their opponents alive in mass graves. The soil of Afghanistan is littered with land mines and almost all the farms have been destroyed . The Afghan people have tried to overthrow the Taliban. They haven't been able to.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble with that scheme is, it's already been done. The Soviets took care of it. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? There is no infrastructure. Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only land in the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. (They have already, I hear.) Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. I think that when people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" many of them are thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. They are thinking about overcoming moral qualms about killing innocent people. But it's the belly to die not kill that's actually on the table. Americans will die in a land war to get Bin Laden. And
not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that, folks. To get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. The invasion approach is a flirtation with global war between Islam and the West.

And that is Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants and why he did this thing. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there At the moment, of course, "Islam" as such does not exist. There are Muslims and there are Muslim countries, but no such political entity as Islam.Bin Laden believes that if he can get a war started, he can constitute this entity and he'd be running it. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into
Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in Muslim lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong about winning, in the end the west would probably overcome--whatever that would mean in such a war; but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden yes, but anyone else?

I don't have a solution. But I do believe that suffering and poverty are the soil in which terrorism grows. Bin Laden and his cohorts want to bait us into creating more such soil, so they and their kind can flourish. We can't let him do that. That's my humble opinion.


Tamim Ansary


Laurel Evans
Iraq Program, Peace Building Unit
American Friends Service Committee
(215) 241-7874
1501 Cherry Street
Philadelphia, PA 19102
FAX: 215-241-7177


Jim (Mi)    Posted 09-26-2001 at 05:36:32       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Oh poor Afghanistan. God forbid a member of this clowns family dies. Yeh sitting back counting our losses and burrying our dead is the way to go. This guy must be writing out of the terrorist: "Appeal to the bleeding hearts of America playbook." What did the men, woman, and children in the Trade Center have to do with the bombing? Were they responsible for tragedy's in other countries, doubt it. Guess what, innocent people died here. Afghanistan should not be bombed for retaliation purposes, but for harboring terrorist organizations. It is getting really tiresom to see you can commit these things against us and our Allies, and countries will take them in because they hate us. Time to start sending a message this will not be tolerated. Stop sending food and money to these countries. Yesterday those idiots were burning the flag in Afghanistan. Seems to me that hungary people have better things to do. Let them starve until they turn him over. I'll bet that if no country gives them food or money, they will be much more inclined to help.


Jerry B    Posted 09-25-2001 at 20:03:48       [Reply]  [No Email]
Erich,
That letter from your friend needs to be read by everyone. It shed more insight onto the situation than anything I have read, heard or seen in the last 2 weeks.
I better understand what we are up against and now know why the Taliban is so militant.

I will say that the comment about "bombing back into the stone age" didn't make much sense as that is pretty much where they are now and have been for many years.

The Afgans gave Russia a big ol' taste of what we went through in Veit Nam. I suspect it will be a repeat performance this time for all concerned.

Perhaps if we go in and feed, clothe, doctor, care for and heavily arm the Afgan public, they will unite against the Taliban and our efforts there will be purely advisory. ( sigh...like we were in Viet Nam).

Oh well...wishful thinking I guess....

God help us no matter what we try or do. Damned if we do and damned if we don't.


Redneck    Posted 03-29-2002 at 02:13:47       [Reply]  [No Email]
Seems to me this story is way too old.These countrys are like a fireant hill.You see them eveywhere and overrunning everything they can.Get close to it to try and slow them down and they attack in force.They don't want just what is theirs,they want yours and make you one of them.If you get tired of this and level their hill,the majority is underground and connected to all the other hills.All of them come boiling out to continue their trouble making.

The only way to control the uncontrollable is total desruction.If you only cut a snake's tail off,he will be back to bite you another day.


Old Warrior    Posted 09-25-2001 at 13:26:14       [Reply]  [No Email]
Not meaning to raise any big issues here, but their gripe seems to be that "our national interests" are more tailored for the oil industry than for the citizens. Along those lines, the oil industry hasn't given a tinker's dam about American or Canadian citizens either.

Their other gripes include introductions at gunpoint, installing unwanted leadership in their governments and they view Americans as boisterous, horny, loud and profane braggarts. Outside of that, we're apparently as nice as any member of the Taliban.

Having duly heard with their complaints and considered their recent attacks, I suggest we try to limit their civilian casualties to, say, 6000 per incident. Considering HazBin Laden's failure to differentiate between civilians and soldiers, i wouldn't want to be thought too civilized. :)




Jim (Mi)    Posted 09-25-2001 at 11:56:50       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Actually other countries are behind us. We just do not accept their help. Think about what happens when we help other countries. We never leave. We keep military installations and whatever else there to remain in that area. Now imagine Britain saying sure we will help, but in response we want to set up a base in Florida in return. We would laugh them out of the country. Also, being the most powerful nation in the world, by accepting help, you give off a sign of weakness. (Your hurt) The only reason G.W. is asking other countries to sign on board is so no one retaliates against us when we do something. We do not need their help, just their assurance for no retaliation.


Jerry B    Posted 09-25-2001 at 09:16:47       [Reply]  [No Email]
G Taylor you have to realize that most of the world SAYS they are behind us. In fact if you were to look they ARE behind us, and off to the side a little bit too. The rest of the world wants us to help them but I fear they don't want to return the favor because it might cost them something in lives lost and property destroyed.

I believe they think if they ignore it,the problem will go away; it won't become a threat to them.
They need to realize that it would be in their best interest to help now while things are realitively quiet rather than waiting until the threat is knocking on their door as well.

We never deserved it..we just sat on our thumbs and let it happen because we got to caught up in technological intelligence and ignored the personal intelligence from lack of interest.


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