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Country Discussion Topics
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Organic stuff
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buck    Posted 12-29-2003 at 21:24:52       [Reply]  [No Email]

I take this to mean that the plants and animals are 100% natural. I can remember back to the early 50's when the majority of the food for my family was grown on the family farm. Garden , orchard, dairy, chickens, sheep, goats, oats and barley, grapes, fish, you get the picture. Even back then dad and grandad used chemicals to get mor out of the land and a better product. cattle feed had supplements. Most of the garden had so much bluestone on it that it looked blue, DDT and 24d was used widely. Weeded were sprayed, crops were sprayed. roundup ready corn came along. Beef was hung high in a tree to rot(cure)for 14 days.Hogs packed in salt or sugar to cure. It is not possible to even buy a seed that will produce a tomato that taste as good as one did 25 years age. How can anyone think that it is remotely possible to have organic foods today? I ate 2 hamburgers today along with ham fries tomatoes unions candy cake and other stuff and I drink well and spring water(not the bottle stuff from municipal sources) and I am 100% confident that none of is organic.


Dieselrider    Posted 12-30-2003 at 17:41:51       [Reply]  [No Email]
This is a real interesting discussion and I can see points on both sides. I guess that I grow my garden and animals somewhere in the middle of what Cal and Paula are saying. I do use seven wetable to help with bug control in the garden and lime on the pasture when needed but,the stuff we eat still tastes soo much better than store baught. Good discussion! Thanks.


Spence    Posted 12-30-2003 at 14:39:04       [Reply]  [No Email]
cept that DDT stuff is still there in that layer of silt at the bottom of the pond just waiting for the next spawn where it will be all stirred up again.

The stuff is non-biodegradable and causes birth defects and cancer and will for generations.


Paula    Posted 12-30-2003 at 06:55:50       [Reply]  [Send Email]
The USDA definition of organic means that no
chemicals or antibiotics (where applicable) were used
in the raising or rearing of the product. So weed
control would by other than by weedicide (like round
up), pest control would be by some other method - I
seem to recall its calle Integrated Pest Control/
Management or some such.

To be certified organic you have to prove by record and
plan, your method of raising crops or animals. It is a
rigorous screening because in the past 'organic' was a
flexible term that could mean many things.

I don't think all crops are organic at all. And I don't think
people are wasting their money buying organic either.
If you can afford it, more power to you. There are real
concerns of pesticide residues finding their way into
people. Mother's breast milk as an alarming number of
residues in now.

Personally I garden organically. Of course my garden
is large enough to meet my needs and is not
commercial in any way shape or form. I use companion
planting and crop rotation to control pests. Last year for
the first time I had a white fly problem with my tomatoes
and went out and bought those sticky yellow cards to
control it. That's organic. Hell, I don' t even use
fertilizer.

Natural is not organic. Natural does not mean the
same thing from product to product. But that's another
discussion.

Paula


Cal    Posted 12-30-2003 at 09:10:41       [Reply]  [No Email]
There is no such thing as a living organism that does not depend upon chemicals in order to live. Life is dependent upon chemicals. The plants of 2000 years ago used the same chemicals that the plants do today, grown legaly organic or not. Modern farmers just add what the soil is short off. Soil is made up of chemicals. Nitrogen is nitrogen, it doesn't matter if it came from a bag or cow manure.
As far as weed sprays are concerned, without it there would be no mother to have a baby in the first place. Remove commercial chemicals and you would have to decide which 3 billion people on this earth you want to die.


Paula    Posted 12-30-2003 at 09:25:23       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Cal, with regards to what you wrote:

"There is no such thing as a living organism that does
not depend upon chemicals in order to live. Life is
dependent upon chemicals."

Sure, but we're not talking about carbon, hydrogen,
nitrogen, sulfur. We're talking about round up
weedicide, organophosphates, etc. So it is an
oversimplification to declare such a thing. Living
organisms can happily live without the benefit of
organophosphates.

"The plants of 2000 years ago used the same
chemicals that the plants do today"

What do you mean specifically? You know for a fact that
2000years ago people were using rodenticides like
warfarin? Or weedicides like round up?

"grown legaly organic or not. Modern farmers just add
what the soil is short off. Soil is made up of chemicals.
Nitrogen is nitrogen, it doesn't matter if it came from a
bag or cow manure."

I'm not sure about that. I do know that there are strict
requirements now in place since the late 90's for your
produce to be 'certified organic' by the government. I
don't know whether it extends to what our source of
nitrogen enrichment is or not. I do know it pertains to
what you use for weed and pest control, growth
enhancement or disease resistance. It is not arbitrary
anymore. If you want that label now, this is the dance
you have to dance.


"As far as weed sprays are concerned, without it there
would be no mother to have a baby in the first place. "

Well that's certainly not true. There are other methods
of weed control than sprays of weedicide. They are
understandably more labor intensive and might even
be more expensive in some cases.

"Remove commercial chemicals and you would have to
decide which 3 billion people on this earth you want to
die."

By commercial chemicals do you mean fertilizer? If that
is the case, then, as I said previously I don't know that
the USDA certification process pertains to that. As for
other chemicals of weed control - granted. An
impoverished country may not have the luxury of
pursuing more expensive weed control policies. But
that does not prevent the consequences of using these
chemicals.

And indeed the world does agree on the banning of
many chemicals. Alar is banned in many nations for
example. The focus seems to be more now on
developing hardier, disease resistant, higher yield
plants instead of bigger, more potent chemicals for
application as we are all beginning to appreciate their
global effect.


In my opinion it is not so simple a subject as 'all
chemicals are bad and should be banned' vs 'all
chemicals are good better living through chemistry'.

As I said previously. I have the opportunity and the
luxury of selecting organic over non-organic. I do not
think it is a waste of time or money.

Paula


Cal    Posted 12-30-2003 at 09:44:38       [Reply]  [No Email]
I have studied soil science and make my statements based upon what I have learned. All chemicals have names that scare the jeepers out of people. The names of the chemicals that are everwhere seem to frighten people that are not familiar with them. Sugar, beer, cola, orange juice,and water all have chemical names. Chemicals are just the compounds that make up this world. And without them there would be no life. As I have said nitrogen, or potash are the same as what occur naturaly in the soil or are put there by farmers. But without those elements you would have no plant. A so called organic farmer just depends upon the limited nutrients that his soil has naturaly or he can come by in some other fashion, such as manure, but even in that manure the chemicals are the same as what is sold at the elevator.
As far as the creation of the legal term, organic I saw that occuring when it did and it seemed to just be another populist movement based upon the noise of a small minority. It was all just politics.


Paula    Posted 12-30-2003 at 10:02:42       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Well Cal to each his own right. That's the beauty of
discussion. You keep on doing what you're doing and
I'll keep on doing what I'm doing. I haven't studied soil
science, but have an almost master's in Environmental
Science (never did the thesis). I had to take a lot of
courses and write a lot of papers on topics like
pollution, IPM, etc. Of course this is all just book
learning and I"ve come to appreciate that theory is not
always reality. I have some understanding of organic
farming from my own backyard garden experience.
Coupled with the book stuff, I'm pretty comfortable with
it.

Paula


calypso    Posted 12-30-2003 at 10:22:11       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Have to agree with Paula here. To say chemicals are chemicals and it is a small band of people that think about organic is an over simplification to a very complex issue. I know there are a lot of people out there who are OK with slow death conditions, like smoking etc. There are others taking responsibility for their health quality including considering the pesticides used on foods as well as the bioengineered food products. Not everyone concerned about this issue is a environmental nazi or a hippie. It was a small band of rebellious folks that started this Country after all ;-)

Happy New Year All!


cowlady    Posted 12-30-2003 at 10:39:14       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Another 2cents...My small vegetable garden is also organic, mainly because I am too lazy and too cheap to do it any other way! My husband dumps a load of creek muck, (probably polluted with farm run-off) I dig it around in the old garden and plant! Once you've had a garden tomato, NOTHING compares!

A "certified organic" guy down the road raises vegetables, chickens and eggs. It is the most disgusting place I have ever seen. The chickens are eating bugs and laying eggs in bushes, laundry baskets, etc. However he IS MAKING A SMALL FORTUNE! He's currently selling eggs at $15.00/doz. to restaurants in New York City, and Chicago. Same for the vegetables and "range fed chickens"!

We buy our chicken and pork from the FFA & 4-H kids. We feel very fortunate that we live in an area where this is possible.


Cal    Posted 12-30-2003 at 11:02:21       [Reply]  [No Email]
We are retired farmers who garden and buy all the rest of our food from the supermarket. I am glad that I have the experience in life to be able to walk through those supermarkets and really appreciate the country I live in. Fruit and vegetables in January are wonderful. I didn't always have them.
I trust my government, the Ag colledges, the market owner, the farmer who grew it and the people who provide the farmer with his inputs.
There will always be problems, but it is the best system in the world.
Also I don't blame that guy who is collecting $15.00 a dozen for eggs, more power to him. But he probably has to depend on people ignorant of the truth in order to get that much. They make money to easy in the city anyway.


calypso    Posted 12-30-2003 at 10:49:42       [Reply]  [Send Email]
15 bucks a dozen! Am I reading this right. I'm going to go out and pet my chickens now ;-)


cowlady    Posted 12-30-2003 at 11:00:52       [Reply]  [No Email]
Calypso, I ain't telling lies!!! LOL! Give 'em a kiss too! Daddy always said some people have more money than sense!


George    Posted 12-30-2003 at 08:12:25       [Reply]  [Send Email]
Mostly, I garden organically. In lieu of commercial fertilizer, I use a lot of compost and horse manure. But, I am not sure how many chemicals are present in the grass clippings which my neighbor drop off at my place in exchange for the tomatoes I hand out. And, I'm equally unsure about what is in the horse dropping. That's one reason I only used aged (1 year min.) manure But, I still feel safer using these as opposed to all that super-duper additives that can be purchased at the farm store.
As far as insectisides, I use a little ground limestone on my beans and squash and it works fairly well. I tried using those so called dish liquid solutions but all I got from that was cleaner bugs.


Paula    Posted 12-30-2003 at 08:20:06       [Reply]  [Send Email]
So far so good with the companion planting. I plant
nasturtium and marigold in all my beds. I do raised bed
"square foot" gardening. I think the hot pepper plants
might also be contributing to pest control. And I have
dogs and cats so I've never had critter issues.

Now I'm moving out to a wooded lot things might
change some. I'm hoping that the dogs will do their job
and am considering some rouen ducks and chinese
geese penned in the garden to keep slugs and such at
bay (they would also have their own enclosure and I
won't let them in when everything is just seedling size).

I'm also going to try some collonade apple trees for the
first time and I've read that fruit are notorious for all
kinds of issues. We'll see.

Paula


Willy-N    Posted 12-30-2003 at 07:51:37       [Reply]  [No Email]
We were making our own Dog Food back in the late 1980s when it was not the in thing to do. They used to laugh at us when we talked about what was used in the Dog Food industries. Now the people who laughed are promoting it. Now they are getting money talking about it. We have or I should say my wife has been researching and learning about food and supliments for over 18 years now. The amount of books on the subjects she has will fill a large book case and now my Daughter is the same way with all her Vet Books and things she is now learning. Gives the Vets a run for there money when they come out to do something to her Cows and they can't pull the wool over her with fancy talk. Mark H.


bob ny    Posted 12-30-2003 at 05:34:06       [Reply]  [No Email]
funny this subject should come up now. i was out and about soliciting vendors for our clubs spring exposition .i stopped at aorganic vegetable supplier they supply so called organic grown veggies to co-ops while i was waiting for the owner to show i walked to the rear of his building and there was a tractor trailer unloading crates that said nothing about organic grown products and were from a western state, imported from south america .also there was a stack of fertilizer as high as the ceiling there were crates marked with his name and organic grown marked on them waiting to be filled i'm not saying that he was doing anything wrong but it sure looked suspicous


Cal    Posted 12-30-2003 at 04:07:55       [Reply]  [No Email]
To my way of thinking people have a right to go out and buy what they call organic food. Having said that I believe they are wasting money and not getting what they believe.
All food is organic, or in another sense, all food is not organic. If you grow food, in what you call a organic condition it still uses basicly the same chemicals to grow as that raised on a modern farm. nitrogen, phosphores, potash, and the micro nutrients such as zinc, boron,etc.
The only diferance would be in the use of weed killing chemicals. We have been using them for over 50 years and the only result has been a heck of a lot of people living better, and just living period. If we stopped the use of weed sprays you would than really see a killer, and that is starvation.
Organic farming is just a scam based upon the desire of certain non-farming people to maintain some kind of upper hand over others in order to show some kind of intellectual superiority. Since nothing in existance is perfect, it is always easy to make charges that are impossible to proof one way or the other.
The real proof is there in the fact that America and the world has never had more or better food. And the average health has never been better, because of better farming methods. Not even the medical profession can come close (in spite of their better pay and social position).


Willy-N    Posted 12-30-2003 at 07:31:29       [Reply]  [No Email]
We have not used ANY weed killers for over 18 years. No chemicals on our gardens or lawns for the same time. Not to say that it is not needed in some places. We just pull the weeds by hand and use manuer in the garden. Now saying that growing your own food is harder to do but we do it for our health reasons. I do smoke and that probley is the worst thing going against me for my health. Might be a waste of time but my 17 year old Daughter has only had antibiotics once in her life and that was for a cold and did not need them. My wife and I never go to the doctors for problems health wise. I haven't missed a day of work for over 7 years due to being sick along with my wife. What we are doing may be a waste of time but I think it is paying off. I never had medical insurance for over 16 years and had no doctor bills except when I cut myself at work or home. I now have it because I broke my foot falling off a roof once and decided it might come in handy when they wanted 30,000.00 to fix it. Lucky the VA Hospital took care of it for me! I will say we have spent money on those not needed vitimans and watch what we eat tring to stay healthy. Mark H.


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